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From: RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Top three reasons for optimism about the ID scam
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2024 17:45:29 -0600
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On 12/4/2024 10:54 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
> On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 16:46:48 -0600, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 12/3/2024 12:57 PM, Martin Harran wrote:
>>> On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 09:52:31 -0600, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 12/3/2024 8:20 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 09:08:28 -0600, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My take is that most Christians no longer fear God in this way.  It is
>>>>>> why most Catholics are just fine with the Heliocentric heresy.
>>>>>> Heliocentrism was never removed as a heresy in the Church.
>>>>>
>>>>> It was never removed as a heresy because it never was a heresy. You
>>>>> have been told that multiple times, yet you persist in stating it.
>>>>
>>>> This is absolutely wrong because of the last major fuss about the issue
>>>> where it turned out that heliocentrism was only a minor heresy at the
>>>> time that Bruno was executed.  It was not the reason for his execution,
>>>> but was one of the heresies that he was found guilty of.
>>>
>>> Your memory serves you badly or else you just can't accept having your
>>> ass handed to you as Burkhard did the last time you argued this.
>>>
>>>> We found out
>>>
>>> Who is this "we" ? It certainly doesn't include me and I don't know
>>> who else it includes.
> 
> So, nothing to offer on who "we" are.

You could not deal with the citations when you got them last time.  Your 
only response was ad hominem against the priest, but nothing to state 
that his conclave references were not what he claimed.

> 
>>>
>>>> that it wasn't made into a capital heresy until the protestants started
>>>> to make it an issue claiming that the church was being too soft on the
>>>> heretics.  When Galileo was charged with the heresy it carried the death
>>>> penalty.
>>>>
>>>> Even the Bruno sources claimed that it was one of the things Bruno was
>>>> found guilty of, but was not what he was executed for.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> It was only
>>>>>> down graded, to a more minor heresy
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no such thing as a "minor" heresy. There are degrees of
>>>>> heresy including one of being *suspected* of heresy which was what
>>>>> Galile was charged with.
>>>>
>>>> Apparently there is because the heliocentric heresy was only down graded
>>>> to such a minor heresy in the 19th century, and was never dropped as a
>>>> heresy by the church.  We found that out in the last major dust up.  The
>>>> source that was put up then had the conclaves cited that had made the
>>>> decisions, and the dates.  As laughable as it may seem, the evidence was
>>>> discounted by your side because the article was written by a
>>>> conservative catholic priest who was a geocentrist.
>>>
>>> Taking an unnamed geocentric priest as an authoritative source for
>>> Catholic Church is indeed laughable.
>>>
>>>> What you need to do
>>>> is determine that those conclaves never happened and those decisions
>>>> were never made.
>>>
>>> *You* are the one making the claims, *you* are the one who needs to
>>> produce evidence - and it needs to be better than an unnamed priest or
>>> a Wiki article.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#:~:text=Galileo's%20opinions%20were%20met%20with,to%20be%20%22formally%20heretical%22.
>>>>
>>>> "Galileo's opinios were met with opposition within the Catholic Church,
>>>> and in 1616 the Inquisition declared heliocentrism to be "formally
>>>> heretical".
>>>
>>>> Galileo faced the death penalty when he was tried in 1633.
>>>
>>> No, he didn't.
>>
>> Your senseless denial is noted.
> 
> Your failure to cite a recognised historian who supports your claim is
> even more noted.

You go find that thread.  You must recall your inability to deal with 
reality then.  My eternal September doesn't go back that far.

https://www.scripturecatholic.com/geocentrism/

This seems to be similar to the source, but seems to be rewritten or 
someone else's version.  This one claims that the council of Trent 
classified heliocentrism as a heresy.  It doesn't seem to have the same 
conclave reports cited, but it has the Congregation of the Index in 1616 
as condeming all writings about Copernicanism.  That seems to have been 
held the same year that it was designated as a formal heresy.

It is later followed by a statement that Galileo was being charged with 
the heresy of being contrary to a fixed earth.

QUOTE:
1633 – On June 22, the Holy Office formally condemns Galileo for heresy: 
“We say, pronounce, sentence and declare that you, the said Galileo…have 
rendered yourself in the judgment of this Holy office vehemently 
suspected of heresy, namely, of having believed and held the doctrine 
which is false and contrary to the Sacred and Divine Scriptures, that 
the sun is the center of the world and does not move from east to west 
and that the earth moves and is not the center of the world…after it has 
been declared and defined as contrary to Holy Scripture…From which we 
are content that you be absolved, provided that…you abjure, curse, and 
detest before us the aforesaid errors and heresies and every other error 
and heresy contrary to the Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church.” Pope 
Urban VIII took full responsibility for the condemnation of Galileo by 
enforcing “in forma communi” the Congregation’s prohibitions against 
books holding the Copernican system as truth.
END QUOTE:

Galileo did face the death penalty.

This source does not have the 19th century (I think that it was sometime 
like 1833) conclave report that downgraded heliocentrism to what it is 
today (some type of lesser heretical transgression) but it does have 
further evidence that geocentrism was never given up on by the Catholic 
church with examples into the 20th century.  This source doesn't seem to 
be interested in what kind of heresy heliocentrism was.  It just 
supports that it was the heresy that Galileo was being tried for, and 
that it remains something that should not be denied by good Catholics.


> 
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> The conservative Catholic source that was put up before noted that it
>>>> was the influence of the protestants that forced the issue that resulted
>>>> in Galileo being investigated by the church for his views, and cited the
>>>> conclave and date for the upgrade of the heresy.  That same source cited
>>>> the conclave in the 1800's that downgraded the heresy back to what it
>>>> was before Galileo.  That source claimed that heliocentrism remained
>>>> heretical.  It was obviously something worth finding Bruno guilty of and
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