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From: The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Joy of this, Joy of that
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2024 22:37:36 +0000
Organization: A little, after lunch
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On 07/12/2024 22:07, D wrote:
> 
> 
> On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> 
>>> I think it can even happen spontaneously, and then there's near death 
>>> experiences as well.
>>>
>> The ultimate trauma...
> 
> Yes, and boy is it fascinating!
> 
>>> That brings me to the thought, since psylocybin and other mushrooms 
>>> are now starting to become so common, if there's something to be 
>>> gained by doing it the natural way instead of "shocking" the mind 
>>> with external drugs?
>>>
>> Depends on the person.  Drugs are supremely violent and the moment or 
>> revelations may well be too much for people to survive mentally intact...
> 
> True. I would very much like to try, but I have madness in the distant 
> family
> and I do not want to take any risk of jarring the good, old brain since 
> it might
> be latent in me.
> 
>> There isn't much point in achieving enlightenment if you are then 
>> unable to cope with daily life.
> 
> This is another interesting thought experiment. We tend to sanctify saints,
> saying they are the paragon of humanity. But would all of us becoing saints
> really be a good end station for humanity?
> 
> If I look at monks and monasteries, they decide (for the love of 
> humanity) to
> move away and pray. If you look at saintly figures among the monks (the 
> "rock
> stars" of spirituality) they tend to withdraw even more, and the 
> brothers take
> care of them.
> 
> Now imagine a planet of such people. It does sound as if the human 
> species would
> just slowly fade away.
> 
>> "Before enlightenment, chopping wood, fetching water: After 
>> enlightenment chopping wood, fetching water"
>>
>> :-)
> 
> True. From where is that quote?

Standard Zen shit I think

> 
>>> The reason I'm thinking about it is that I 've read about underground 
>>> trip-clinics where people get "hooked" on the spiritual experience of 
>>> merging with the universe. They want to experience it again and again.
>>>
>> Bliss junkies.
>>
>> It inst an escape. They probably gave em fentanyl. They knocked me out 
>> with that for my last operation. Wow!
> 
> Yes, it does sound like junkies. They are only there for the instant 
> effects,
> and not for the goal (to find god). I think, but am not sure, that buddha
> strongly warned against blissful states, spiritual experiences, esp and 
> so on,
> and said "just keep on meditating and do not let yourself be distracted by
> that".
> 
Yes.  Very much so.

> It would make a lot of sense if that is what he said, and it would also 
> make me
> think that in fact, bliss junkies is exactly what they are, and that it 
> might
> actually be harmful for them in the long run, even though they run around
> feeling bliss all day.
> 
>>> Contrast that with a buddhist monk who trained meditation for 
>>> decades, and then has his realization. He might be a kind and loving 
>>> man, with enormous compassion, continuing with his meditation and 
>>> helping people.
>>>
>> Indeed.
>>
>>> The young man in the trip-clinic, goes there once a week to get his 
>>> dose of spirituality.
>>>
>> Or down the club for a bit of Ecstasy.
>>
>> There is a reason psychedelics are no longer in vogue. They don't 
>> guarantee a good time at all. In fact they can deliver a seriously bad 
>> one. Hence Ecstasy - a cross between an amphetamine and a psychedelic.
> 
> I think transpersonal psychology and psychedelic therapy are trying to 
> mitigate
> that, and make it for "everyone" by carefully monitoring the process and 
> the
> doseages.

Well good luck with that. I come from a rougher and less sympathetic 
age. If you cant take the heat stay out of the kitchen.


> 
>>> Is this good or bad? Is there a component that favours one or the 
>>> other method?
>>>
>> Depends on the person. I think you need to be very strong to survive 
>> any drug. But weak people are attracted.
> 
> Only one way to find out! ;)
> 
>>> I have a business colleague who is afraid of death. He went to an 
>>> underground clinic and took a trip, and for a week or two afterwards 
>>> he felt more in tune with the world and more spiritual and even 
>>> hesitated to kill mosquitoes out of compassion. But then the effect 
>>> started to wear off as life came back.
>>>
>> Psychedelics destroy your current world view. You can then find 
>> alternative ones, or end up with none at all, in a mental institution, 
>> but your normal one is a deep groove to escape from...its like they 
>> are a tool to modify the metaphysics. But they are no guarantee the 
>> modification will hold.
> 
> I think it depends and can be anything from destroying it, shattering 
> your ego,
> jarring it, or mildly "nudging" it. Maybe psychological illness is like the
> gearbox getting stuck, and the mild jarring, or hit of the drug, might 
> shake it
> a bit so it becomes unstuck?

Mental illness from the psychedelic perspective is simply a bad 
metaphysical choice.
People choose to believe something, perhaps not even consciously,  that 
makes them dysfunctional and unhappy. But in some sense secure in their 
belief.

"everyone is out to get me because i am in fact superior in every way, 
so I don't need to change my views at all, I am right, and they are 
simply wrong"



> 
>> This is the world we have to live in - unless we are extremely 
>> permanently 'enlightened'
> 
> True. I often think that the reason christianity banned suicide was that 
> life
> was so bad in the middle ages, that if people truly believed they would 
> go to
> heaven after death, they would all commit suicide, if the church didn't 
> forbid
> that way of "hacking the system"! ;)
> 
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