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From: RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Top three reasons for optimism about the ID scam
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:28:06 -0600
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On 12/8/2024 6:39 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 12:48:22 -0600, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 12/7/2024 3:10 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
>>> On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 17:45:29 -0600, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 12/4/2024 10:54 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 16:46:48 -0600, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12/3/2024 12:57 PM, Martin Harran wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 09:52:31 -0600, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 12/3/2024 8:20 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 09:08:28 -0600, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My take is that most Christians no longer fear God in this way.  It is
>>>>>>>>>> why most Catholics are just fine with the Heliocentric heresy.
>>>>>>>>>> Heliocentrism was never removed as a heresy in the Church.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It was never removed as a heresy because it never was a heresy. You
>>>>>>>>> have been told that multiple times, yet you persist in stating it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is absolutely wrong because of the last major fuss about the issue
>>>>>>>> where it turned out that heliocentrism was only a minor heresy at the
>>>>>>>> time that Bruno was executed.  It was not the reason for his execution,
>>>>>>>> but was one of the heresies that he was found guilty of.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your memory serves you badly or else you just can't accept having your
>>>>>>> ass handed to you as Burkhard did the last time you argued this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We found out
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Who is this "we" ? It certainly doesn't include me and I don't know
>>>>>>> who else it includes.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, nothing to offer on who "we" are.
>>>>
>>>> You could not deal with the citations when you got them last time.  Your
>>>> only response was ad hominem against the priest, but nothing to state
>>>> that his conclave references were not what he claimed.
>>>
>>> I have no appetite for wading through the numerous errors in your post
>>> that have been well covered several times in the past. I will,
>>> however, make clear that I make no apology whatsoever for dismissing
>>> out of hand an anonymous blog post trying to make the case for
>>> geocentrism and that Galileo was wrong, implying that the Catholic
>>> Church were justified in treating him the way they did. You couldn't
>>> even identify the author in whom you were putting so much faith. but
>>> Ernest Major identified him as John Salza, an attorney who is a
>>> self-appointed apologist for the Catholic Church but has no
>>> theological or historian qualifications or authority to speak for the
>>> Churc; ironic echoes of another lawyer, Phillip Johnson, setting
>>> himself up as an authority on evolution! It seems to height of
>>> hypocrisy for you to castigate other people for taking basing their
>>> opinions on what Johnson says yet be happy to form yours from what
>>> Salza says.
>>>
>>> [snip stuff that desn't improve with repetition]
>>>
>>
>> Just like the last time.  I recall that it was you, and you called him a
>> conservative catholic preist at the time.  Nothing was said about him
>> being a lawyer.
> 
> No, I didn't say that anything about him being a priest at that time;
> I simply pointed out that if the best you could find was an anonymous
> article, that really should have given you pause for thought.
> 
> https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/m0ort1DTb0M/m/eASJA9dLBAAJ
> 
> I did refer to him as a priest earlier in this current thread but that
> was *me* misremembering. When I went back and checked, I found he was
> a lawyer and unlike *you*, I have no problem admitting to an error and
> correcting it.
> 
> 
>> I found the material on line because it was Major that
>> claimed that heliocentrism did not carry the death penalty at the time
>> Bruno was tried.  I found it looking for confirmation of what Major had
>> claimed.  That source confirmed what Major had claimed, and had the
>> citations of the Conclave reports that changed the status to one that
>> carried the death penalty.  It was similar to what I just put up, and
>> that you have snipped out.
> 
> You first introduced the site in a thread you started titled
> 'Geocentrism and Christianity' back in 2020. Here's your starter post:
> https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/m0ort1DTb0M/m/nCd0oh2NAwAJ
> 
> Just hours after you posted the above, Ernest Major identified the
> author as Jon Salza
> https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/m0ort1DTb0M/m/dESEYVCwAwAJ
> 
> Ernest described him as "an anti-Mason, and a Catholic apologist… [and
> that] … Wikipedia thinks that he's not notable."
> 
> In that Geocentrism and Christianity' thread, he made four posts
> relating to the Catholic Church about geocentrism:
> 
> 1 He identified Salza as the author of that site (link above)
> 
> 2 He explained in a reply to you how he figured out that is was Salza
> https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/m0ort1DTb0M/m/po1MiCK3AwAJ
> 
> 3) In reply a comment by Burkhard comment 'Oh, that guy! Rare case of
> a catholic YEC …." he responded that "He [Salza] seems very keen on
> deferring to the Church Fathers, but not so far as to defer to
> Augustine's instruction to let empirical data trump scriptural
> interpretation."
> https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/m0ort1DTb0M/m/1UQZ5pa2AwAJ
> 
> 4) He commented that he didn't see where you got the 1850 date for the
> Church's "reaffirmation of geocentrism". Perhaps his questioning that
> particular date is what you are misremembering even though he said
> nothing at all about a death penalty.
> https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/m0ort1DTb0M/m/v4fNh_0IBAAJ
> 
> He did contribute some other posts in the thread but they were about
> the Cathholic Church's attitude to science in general and nature of
> fundamentalism. No reference at all to geocentrsim, heresy, or death
> penalty.
> 
> I have thoroughly searched my own Agent archive and also GG I cannot
> find anything anywhere by Ernest about heliocentrism and the death
> penalty so it's obviously your faulty memory.
> 
>>
>> This is pretty much what you did last time.  Why can't you deal with the
>> source that I just put up?  It doesn't matter if the guy is a lawyer or
>> a priest, you have to deal with the material presented.  The source that
>> I just put up has about the same material except it doesn't have the
>> references about the status change of the heresy.  It just notes that it
>> was a heresy, and is the heresy that Galileo faced.
> 
> I have dealt with it several times including in that particular thread
> where I gave the Catholic Church's own statement about it and the
> supporting conclusions of eminent scholars like Augustus De Morgan and
> von Gebler.
> 
> https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/m0ort1DTb0M/m/-mVloL6LBwAJ
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