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From: Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Oscilloscope delivers 25 GHz bandwith on 4 channels
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 01:27:13 +0100
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On 10-12-2024 00:14, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On 08-12-2024 21:41, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>> john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 18:26:07 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
>>>> <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 12/8/24 16:53, john larkin wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:11:47 +0100, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund
>>>>>> <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 07-12-2024 07:00, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>>>>> On a sunny day (Fri, 6 Dec 2024 17:59:30 +0100) it happened Lasse Langwadt
>>>>>>>> <llc@fonz.dk> wrote in <vivahi$2etnj$2@dont-email.me>:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 12/5/24 11:31, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Oscilloscope Delivers 25-GHz Bandwidth on Four Channels
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/test-measurement/oscilloscopes/article/55247306/electronic-design-pico-technology-oscilloscope-delivers-25-ghz-bandwidth-on-four-channels
>>>>>>>>>> Pico Technology expanded its PicoScope 9400 Series with the
>>>>>>>>>> PicoScope 9404A-25, a high-performance oscilloscope with 25 GHz of
>>>>>>>>>> bandwidth on four channels. The company's Sampler-Extended
>>>>>>>>>> Real-Time Oscilloscope (SXRTO) technology integrates real-time
>>>>>>>>>> acquisition with sampling oscilloscope capabilities. Thus, the
>>>>>>>>>> scope can trigger directly on the signal while recording pre-trigger
>>>>>>>>>> data, with the high time and amplitude resolution of a sampling scope.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.electronicdesign.com/techxchange/article/55238271/advanced-oscilloscope-techniques
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.picotech.com/products/oscilloscope/picoscope-9000-series/picoscope-9400a-series-sampler-extended-real-time-oscilloscope
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Only 25,645 ?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> For the real audiophiles!!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXYje2B04xE
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 110GHz bandwidth, 256GS/s four channels, only ~$2M
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.keysight.com/us/en/product/UXR1102A/infiniium-uxr-series-oscilloscope-110-ghz-2-channels.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When I want to see 10 GHz signals I use an old 5 dollar LNB and
>>>>>>>> downconvert to about 1 GHz...
>>>>>>>> that into a 35 dollar RTL_SDR stick.
>>>>>>>> I know it is not the same, but 100 GHz downconvert should not cost hat much more
>>>>>>>> At higher frequencies lasers into non linear crystals as mixer?
>>>>>>>>  From the 1.999 M$ left buy a nice house?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Very nice idea, but that will work only for sinusoidal signals, right?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There were some superhet oscilloscopes that split the input signal
>>>>>> into bands with RF techniques, namely downconverting bands and
>>>>>> digitizing them, then somehow putting that mess back together
>>>>>> mathematically. Of course, one was a LeCroy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Integrated shockline samplers killed that idea.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But 100 GHz electrical signals barely exist, so the market is small
>>>>>> for those megabuck scopes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I should be possible to abuse a cheap fast latched comparator as
>>>>> a sampler with ~10GHz bandwidth or so. Something like an ADCMP580.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jeroen Belleman
>>>>
>>>> I've done that and have a PCB, TDR actually. It seemed to work but I
>>>> haven't had much time to play with it.
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone want to take over and see how well it actually works? I
>>>> guess it could become a product.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/y88pcdjfd0qovxmpfizwu/Z368.JPG?rlkey=fu4bng7i34yjbol7s1npapp8x&raw=1
>>>>
>>>> It's one of those tiles.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Simon and I are just finishing up a TDR gizmo for measuring soil moisture
>>> and salinity vs depth for an ag customer.  It’s a 150-ps-class device,
>>> which is much better than good enough for the application, and we’re
>>> getting the first 20 fully-stuffed boards for $23 each from JLCPCB,
>>> including the data converters, MCU, voltage regulators, as well as the TDR
>>> proper.
>>>
>>> It uses a two-diode sampler, which avoids the major pain of sampler design,
>>> the need to match diodes. Of course it has horrible kickout, but that’s
>>> perfectly okay in this situation.
>>>
>>> Fun gizmo.
>>>
>>
>> At an earlier employment a proposal was made to include a TDR into a
>> product, to be able to preventive warn of cable faults or even motor
>> winding shorts.
>>
>> Then a RF engineer, one that I never liked much, took the brute force
>> approach using a GHz sampling ADC, costing hundreds of dollars per
>> product (would effectively kill the idea). He said it could not be done
>> in any other way.
>>
>> I then made a diode sampler, with a sliding picosecond STM32 timer, and
>> made it for 10 USD instead :-)
>>
> 
> Our gizmo is replacing something like that—a 250 MSa transient digitizer
> run in equivalent time mode. Its BOM cost was around $400, plus a lot of
> the parts were EOL.
> 
> Savings like that sure make the licensing conversation easier. ;)
> 
So you were able to make a deal with the client that you part owned the 
IP, and could use it for other projects?

I am in a similar situation right now, working on a dedicated HW 
solution that I would like to begin to sell afterwards. Guessing either 
telling the client they get later improvements to the design for free, 
reducing my hours billed, or letting them get  a percentage of the 
profits of my sales.