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From: Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Oscilloscope delivers 25 GHz bandwith on 4 channels
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 01:16:46 -0000 (UTC)
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Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 10-12-2024 00:14, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 08-12-2024 21:41, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>> john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 18:26:07 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
>>>>> <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 12/8/24 16:53, john larkin wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:11:47 +0100, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund
>>>>>>> <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 07-12-2024 07:00, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On a sunny day (Fri, 6 Dec 2024 17:59:30 +0100) it happened Lasse Langwadt
>>>>>>>>> <llc@fonz.dk> wrote in <vivahi$2etnj$2@dont-email.me>:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On 12/5/24 11:31, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Oscilloscope Delivers 25-GHz Bandwidth on Four Channels
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/test-measurement/oscilloscopes/article/55247306/electronic-design-pico-technology-oscilloscope-delivers-25-ghz-bandwidth-on-four-channels
>>>>>>>>>>> Pico Technology expanded its PicoScope 9400 Series with the
>>>>>>>>>>> PicoScope 9404A-25, a high-performance oscilloscope with 25 GHz of
>>>>>>>>>>> bandwidth on four channels. The company's Sampler-Extended
>>>>>>>>>>> Real-Time Oscilloscope (SXRTO) technology integrates real-time
>>>>>>>>>>> acquisition with sampling oscilloscope capabilities. Thus, the
>>>>>>>>>>> scope can trigger directly on the signal while recording pre-trigger
>>>>>>>>>>> data, with the high time and amplitude resolution of a sampling scope.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.electronicdesign.com/techxchange/article/55238271/advanced-oscilloscope-techniques
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.picotech.com/products/oscilloscope/picoscope-9000-series/picoscope-9400a-series-sampler-extended-real-time-oscilloscope
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Only 25,645 ?
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> For the real audiophiles!!
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXYje2B04xE
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 110GHz bandwidth, 256GS/s four channels, only ~$2M
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> https://www.keysight.com/us/en/product/UXR1102A/infiniium-uxr-series-oscilloscope-110-ghz-2-channels.html
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> When I want to see 10 GHz signals I use an old 5 dollar LNB and
>>>>>>>>> downconvert to about 1 GHz...
>>>>>>>>> that into a 35 dollar RTL_SDR stick.
>>>>>>>>> I know it is not the same, but 100 GHz downconvert should not cost hat much more
>>>>>>>>> At higher frequencies lasers into non linear crystals as mixer?
>>>>>>>>> From the 1.999 M$ left buy a nice house?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Very nice idea, but that will work only for sinusoidal signals, right?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> There were some superhet oscilloscopes that split the input signal
>>>>>>> into bands with RF techniques, namely downconverting bands and
>>>>>>> digitizing them, then somehow putting that mess back together
>>>>>>> mathematically. Of course, one was a LeCroy.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Integrated shockline samplers killed that idea.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> But 100 GHz electrical signals barely exist, so the market is small
>>>>>>> for those megabuck scopes.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I should be possible to abuse a cheap fast latched comparator as
>>>>>> a sampler with ~10GHz bandwidth or so. Something like an ADCMP580.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Jeroen Belleman
>>>>> 
>>>>> I've done that and have a PCB, TDR actually. It seemed to work but I
>>>>> haven't had much time to play with it.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Does anyone want to take over and see how well it actually works? I
>>>>> guess it could become a product.
>>>>> 
>>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/y88pcdjfd0qovxmpfizwu/Z368.JPG?rlkey=fu4bng7i34yjbol7s1npapp8x&raw=1
>>>>> 
>>>>> It's one of those tiles.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Simon and I are just finishing up a TDR gizmo for measuring soil moisture
>>>> and salinity vs depth for an ag customer.  It’s a 150-ps-class device,
>>>> which is much better than good enough for the application, and we’re
>>>> getting the first 20 fully-stuffed boards for $23 each from JLCPCB,
>>>> including the data converters, MCU, voltage regulators, as well as the TDR
>>>> proper.
>>>> 
>>>> It uses a two-diode sampler, which avoids the major pain of sampler design,
>>>> the need to match diodes. Of course it has horrible kickout, but that’s
>>>> perfectly okay in this situation.
>>>> 
>>>> Fun gizmo.
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> At an earlier employment a proposal was made to include a TDR into a
>>> product, to be able to preventive warn of cable faults or even motor
>>> winding shorts.
>>> 
>>> Then a RF engineer, one that I never liked much, took the brute force
>>> approach using a GHz sampling ADC, costing hundreds of dollars per
>>> product (would effectively kill the idea). He said it could not be done
>>> in any other way.
>>> 
>>> I then made a diode sampler, with a sliding picosecond STM32 timer, and
>>> made it for 10 USD instead :-)
>>> 
>> 
>> Our gizmo is replacing something like that—a 250 MSa transient digitizer
>> run in equivalent time mode. Its BOM cost was around $400, plus a lot of
>> the parts were EOL.
>> 
>> Savings like that sure make the licensing conversation easier. ;)
>> 
> So you were able to make a deal with the client that you part owned the 
> IP, and could use it for other projects?
> 
> I am in a similar situation right now, working on a dedicated HW 
> solution that I would like to begin to sell afterwards. Guessing either 
> telling the client they get later improvements to the design for free, 
> reducing my hours billed, or letting them get  a percentage of the 
> profits of my sales.
> 

The conversation is still underway, but I expect that we’ll wind up with a
win-win deal, as we have previously. 

We position ourselves as a design consultancy with a lot of existing
“background IP”, including full product designs, design studies, and
general know-how. 

In the present case, we’re looking at filing a patent for a new measurement
principle, and charging the customer a combined patent/know-how royalty.
Since the total cost is a good bit less than the BOM savings alone, the
negotiations are pretty amicable. ;)

Cheers 

Phil Hobbs 

-- 
Dr Philip C D Hobbs  Principal Consultant  ElectroOptical Innovations LLC /
Hobbs ElectroOptics  Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics