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From: Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Oscilloscope delivers 25 GHz bandwith on 4 channels
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 13:12:09 -0000 (UTC)
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Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 10-12-2024 02:16, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 10-12-2024 00:14, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>> Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 08-12-2024 21:41, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>>>> john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 18:26:07 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
>>>>>>> <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 12/8/24 16:53, john larkin wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:11:47 +0100, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund
>>>>>>>>> <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On 07-12-2024 07:00, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On a sunny day (Fri, 6 Dec 2024 17:59:30 +0100) it happened Lasse Langwadt
>>>>>>>>>>> <llc@fonz.dk> wrote in <vivahi$2etnj$2@dont-email.me>:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/5/24 11:31, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oscilloscope Delivers 25-GHz Bandwidth on Four Channels
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/test-measurement/oscilloscopes/article/55247306/electronic-design-pico-technology-oscilloscope-delivers-25-ghz-bandwidth-on-four-channels
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pico Technology expanded its PicoScope 9400 Series with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> PicoScope 9404A-25, a high-performance oscilloscope with 25 GHz of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bandwidth on four channels. The company's Sampler-Extended
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Real-Time Oscilloscope (SXRTO) technology integrates real-time
>>>>>>>>>>>>> acquisition with sampling oscilloscope capabilities. Thus, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> scope can trigger directly on the signal while recording pre-trigger
>>>>>>>>>>>>> data, with the high time and amplitude resolution of a sampling scope.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.electronicdesign.com/techxchange/article/55238271/advanced-oscilloscope-techniques
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.picotech.com/products/oscilloscope/picoscope-9000-series/picoscope-9400a-series-sampler-extended-real-time-oscilloscope
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Only 25,645 ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> For the real audiophiles!!
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXYje2B04xE
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 110GHz bandwidth, 256GS/s four channels, only ~$2M
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.keysight.com/us/en/product/UXR1102A/infiniium-uxr-series-oscilloscope-110-ghz-2-channels.html
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> When I want to see 10 GHz signals I use an old 5 dollar LNB and
>>>>>>>>>>> downconvert to about 1 GHz...
>>>>>>>>>>> that into a 35 dollar RTL_SDR stick.
>>>>>>>>>>> I know it is not the same, but 100 GHz downconvert should not cost hat much more
>>>>>>>>>>> At higher frequencies lasers into non linear crystals as mixer?
>>>>>>>>>>> From the 1.999 M$ left buy a nice house?
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Very nice idea, but that will work only for sinusoidal signals, right?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> There were some superhet oscilloscopes that split the input signal
>>>>>>>>> into bands with RF techniques, namely downconverting bands and
>>>>>>>>> digitizing them, then somehow putting that mess back together
>>>>>>>>> mathematically. Of course, one was a LeCroy.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Integrated shockline samplers killed that idea.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> But 100 GHz electrical signals barely exist, so the market is small
>>>>>>>>> for those megabuck scopes.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I should be possible to abuse a cheap fast latched comparator as
>>>>>>>> a sampler with ~10GHz bandwidth or so. Something like an ADCMP580.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Jeroen Belleman
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I've done that and have a PCB, TDR actually. It seemed to work but I
>>>>>>> haven't had much time to play with it.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Does anyone want to take over and see how well it actually works? I
>>>>>>> guess it could become a product.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/y88pcdjfd0qovxmpfizwu/Z368.JPG?rlkey=fu4bng7i34yjbol7s1npapp8x&raw=1
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> It's one of those tiles.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Simon and I are just finishing up a TDR gizmo for measuring soil moisture
>>>>>> and salinity vs depth for an ag customer.  It’s a 150-ps-class device,
>>>>>> which is much better than good enough for the application, and we’re
>>>>>> getting the first 20 fully-stuffed boards for $23 each from JLCPCB,
>>>>>> including the data converters, MCU, voltage regulators, as well as the TDR
>>>>>> proper.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It uses a two-diode sampler, which avoids the major pain of sampler design,
>>>>>> the need to match diodes. Of course it has horrible kickout, but that’s
>>>>>> perfectly okay in this situation.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Fun gizmo.
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> At an earlier employment a proposal was made to include a TDR into a
>>>>> product, to be able to preventive warn of cable faults or even motor
>>>>> winding shorts.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Then a RF engineer, one that I never liked much, took the brute force
>>>>> approach using a GHz sampling ADC, costing hundreds of dollars per
>>>>> product (would effectively kill the idea). He said it could not be done
>>>>> in any other way.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I then made a diode sampler, with a sliding picosecond STM32 timer, and
>>>>> made it for 10 USD instead :-)
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Our gizmo is replacing something like that—a 250 MSa transient digitizer
>>>> run in equivalent time mode. Its BOM cost was around $400, plus a lot of
>>>> the parts were EOL.
>>>> 
>>>> Savings like that sure make the licensing conversation easier. ;)
>>>> 
>>> So you were able to make a deal with the client that you part owned the
>>> IP, and could use it for other projects?
>>> 
>>> I am in a similar situation right now, working on a dedicated HW
>>> solution that I would like to begin to sell afterwards. Guessing either
>>> telling the client they get later improvements to the design for free,
>>> reducing my hours billed, or letting them get  a percentage of the
>>> profits of my sales.
>>> 
>> 
>> The conversation is still underway, but I expect that we’ll wind up with a
>> win-win deal, as we have previously.
>> 
>> We position ourselves as a design consultancy with a lot of existing
>> “background IP”, including full product designs, design studies, and
>> general know-how.
>> 
>> In the present case, we’re looking at filing a patent for a new measurement
>> principle, and charging the customer a combined patent/know-how royalty.
>> Since the total cost is a good bit less than the BOM savings alone, the
>> negotiations are pretty amicable. ;)
> 
> Sounds like an idea situation. Important to take that upfront
> 
> I have spend a lot of time on cost savings over the years, so when I 
> take a consulting assignment, I often try to solve the task and reduce 
> cost significantly at the same time. Ideally with a ROI of a year. That 
> is a compelling selling argument against the customer.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Klaus
> 

Yup. It’s worth pitching a royalty,because the value you bring isn’t just a
one-time payoff.  That’s true whether you’re customizing an existing design
or doing something new.  You have a lot of background IP, including
previous designs and 

The most common objection is, “We’re paying you for the work—why should we
pay twice?”  The answer is that the royalty (5% of revenue or thereabouts)
is for the background IP, and the hourly work is for customizing it to
their application. 

Try saying that you want to succeed together with them—that gets the point
across pretty well, we find.  

Cheers 

Phil Hobbs 

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