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From: Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Oscilloscope delivers 25 GHz bandwith on 4 channels
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 13:17:37 -0000 (UTC)
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Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
> Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On 10-12-2024 02:16, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>> Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 10-12-2024 00:14, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>>> Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 08-12-2024 21:41, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>>>>> john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 18:26:07 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
>>>>>>>> <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 12/8/24 16:53, john larkin wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:11:47 +0100, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund
>>>>>>>>>> <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On 07-12-2024 07:00, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On a sunny day (Fri, 6 Dec 2024 17:59:30 +0100) it happened Lasse Langwadt
>>>>>>>>>>>> <llc@fonz.dk> wrote in <vivahi$2etnj$2@dont-email.me>:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/5/24 11:31, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oscilloscope Delivers 25-GHz Bandwidth on Four Channels
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/test-measurement/oscilloscopes/article/55247306/electronic-design-pico-technology-oscilloscope-delivers-25-ghz-bandwidth-on-four-channels
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pico Technology expanded its PicoScope 9400 Series with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PicoScope 9404A-25, a high-performance oscilloscope with 25 GHz of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bandwidth on four channels. The company's Sampler-Extended
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Real-Time Oscilloscope (SXRTO) technology integrates real-time
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> acquisition with sampling oscilloscope capabilities. Thus, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> scope can trigger directly on the signal while recording pre-trigger
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> data, with the high time and amplitude resolution of a sampling scope.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.electronicdesign.com/techxchange/article/55238271/advanced-oscilloscope-techniques
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.picotech.com/products/oscilloscope/picoscope-9000-series/picoscope-9400a-series-sampler-extended-real-time-oscilloscope
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Only 25,645 ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For the real audiophiles!!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXYje2B04xE
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 110GHz bandwidth, 256GS/s four channels, only ~$2M
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.keysight.com/us/en/product/UXR1102A/infiniium-uxr-series-oscilloscope-110-ghz-2-channels.html
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> When I want to see 10 GHz signals I use an old 5 dollar LNB and
>>>>>>>>>>>> downconvert to about 1 GHz...
>>>>>>>>>>>> that into a 35 dollar RTL_SDR stick.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I know it is not the same, but 100 GHz downconvert should not cost hat much more
>>>>>>>>>>>> At higher frequencies lasers into non linear crystals as mixer?
>>>>>>>>>>>> From the 1.999 M$ left buy a nice house?
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Very nice idea, but that will work only for sinusoidal signals, right?
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> There were some superhet oscilloscopes that split the input signal
>>>>>>>>>> into bands with RF techniques, namely downconverting bands and
>>>>>>>>>> digitizing them, then somehow putting that mess back together
>>>>>>>>>> mathematically. Of course, one was a LeCroy.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Integrated shockline samplers killed that idea.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> But 100 GHz electrical signals barely exist, so the market is small
>>>>>>>>>> for those megabuck scopes.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I should be possible to abuse a cheap fast latched comparator as
>>>>>>>>> a sampler with ~10GHz bandwidth or so. Something like an ADCMP580.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Jeroen Belleman
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I've done that and have a PCB, TDR actually. It seemed to work but I
>>>>>>>> haven't had much time to play with it.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Does anyone want to take over and see how well it actually works? I
>>>>>>>> guess it could become a product.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/y88pcdjfd0qovxmpfizwu/Z368.JPG?rlkey=fu4bng7i34yjbol7s1npapp8x&raw=1
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> It's one of those tiles.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Simon and I are just finishing up a TDR gizmo for measuring soil moisture
>>>>>>> and salinity vs depth for an ag customer.  It’s a 150-ps-class device,
>>>>>>> which is much better than good enough for the application, and we’re
>>>>>>> getting the first 20 fully-stuffed boards for $23 each from JLCPCB,
>>>>>>> including the data converters, MCU, voltage regulators, as well as the TDR
>>>>>>> proper.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> It uses a two-diode sampler, which avoids the major pain of sampler design,
>>>>>>> the need to match diodes. Of course it has horrible kickout, but that’s
>>>>>>> perfectly okay in this situation.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Fun gizmo.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> At an earlier employment a proposal was made to include a TDR into a
>>>>>> product, to be able to preventive warn of cable faults or even motor
>>>>>> winding shorts.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Then a RF engineer, one that I never liked much, took the brute force
>>>>>> approach using a GHz sampling ADC, costing hundreds of dollars per
>>>>>> product (would effectively kill the idea). He said it could not be done
>>>>>> in any other way.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I then made a diode sampler, with a sliding picosecond STM32 timer, and
>>>>>> made it for 10 USD instead :-)
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Our gizmo is replacing something like that—a 250 MSa transient digitizer
>>>>> run in equivalent time mode. Its BOM cost was around $400, plus a lot of
>>>>> the parts were EOL.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Savings like that sure make the licensing conversation easier. ;)
>>>>> 
>>>> So you were able to make a deal with the client that you part owned the
>>>> IP, and could use it for other projects?
>>>> 
>>>> I am in a similar situation right now, working on a dedicated HW
>>>> solution that I would like to begin to sell afterwards. Guessing either
>>>> telling the client they get later improvements to the design for free,
>>>> reducing my hours billed, or letting them get  a percentage of the
>>>> profits of my sales.
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> The conversation is still underway, but I expect that we’ll wind up with a
>>> win-win deal, as we have previously.
>>> 
>>> We position ourselves as a design consultancy with a lot of existing
>>> “background IP”, including full product designs, design studies, and
>>> general know-how.
>>> 
>>> In the present case, we’re looking at filing a patent for a new measurement
>>> principle, and charging the customer a combined patent/know-how royalty.
>>> Since the total cost is a good bit less than the BOM savings alone, the
>>> negotiations are pretty amicable. ;)
>> 
>> Sounds like an idea situation. Important to take that upfront
>> 
>> I have spend a lot of time on cost savings over the years, so when I 
>> take a consulting assignment, I often try to solve the task and reduce 
>> cost significantly at the same time. Ideally with a ROI of a year. That 
>> is a compelling selling argument against the customer.
>> 
>> Cheers
>> 
>> Klaus
>> 
> 
> Yup. It’s worth pitching a royalty,because the value you bring isn’t just a
> one-time payoff.  That’s true whether you’re customizing an existing design
> or doing something new.  You have a lot of background IP, including
> previous designs,
design approaches, circuit topologies, and general expertise, such as how
to make an amplifier fast and accurate while avoiding oscillation. 

> 
> The most common objection is, “We’re paying you for the work—why should we
> pay twice?”  The answer is that the royalty (5% of revenue or thereabouts)
> is for the background IP, and the hourly work is for customizing it to
> their application. 
> 
> Try saying that you want to succeed together with them—that gets the point
> across pretty well, we find.  
> 
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