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From: Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: This first time anyone In the entire history of the halting problem derived a correct return value for HHH(DD)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 11:53:31 +0200
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On 2024-12-10 14:22:48 +0000, olcott said:

> On 12/10/2024 1:35 AM, Mikko wrote:
>> On 2024-12-09 13:46:16 +0000, olcott said:
>> 
>>> On 12/9/2024 4:54 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>> On 2024-12-08 19:34:19 +0000, olcott said:
>>>> 
>>>>> On 12/8/2024 4:55 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>> On 2024-12-05 04:20:50 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> There is an 80% chance that I will be alive in one month.
>>>>>>> There may be an extended pause in my comments.
>>>>>>> I will try to bring a computer to the out of town hospital.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 12/4/2024 8:16 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 12/4/24 8:50 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 12/4/2024 7:45 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 12/4/24 8:41 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/4/2024 7:31 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/4/24 8:06 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/4/2024 6:11 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/4/24 9:27 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/3/2024 5:39 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/3/24 6:08 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/3/2024 3:03 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Mon, 02 Dec 2024 20:48:49 -0600 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/28/2024 1:48 PM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   >>> HHH can't simulate itself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is WRONG !!!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH DOES EMULATE ITSELF PROVING THAT IT CAN EMULATE ITSELF.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We know that HHH halts. It doesn't simulate itself halting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Please try and explain how you are not dishonest what you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> try to change the subject from my rebuttal of your statement:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>> HHH can't simulate itself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That HHH does emulate itself emulating DDD proves
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> THAT IT CAN DO THIS.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But only if your think that wrong answer can be right.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I did not mention anything about answers my entire
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> scope is that HHH does emulate itself emulating DDD
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thus conclusively proving that HHH can emulated itself
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulating DDD.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whenever you go out-of-scope like this it surely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seems dishonest to me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But the behaivor that HHH shows that it has *IS* an "answer",
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD emulated by any HHH according to the semantics of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the x86 language cannot possibly reach its "ret" instruction
>>>>>>>>>>>>> whether HHH aborts this emulation after N steps or never aborts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Just a nonsense sentence, since HHH can't emulate HHH as it isn't given it,
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Why do you have to keep fucking lying about this?
>>>>>>>>>>> I could die on the operating table in two weeks!
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> What's the lie?
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Can you point to what I say that is wrong, and a reliable reference 
>>>>>>>>>> that show it?
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> All you have is your own lies to call it a lie.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> And yes, you might die in two weeks, and the only thing you will have 
>>>>>>>>>> left behind is all your lies.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Yes you fucking jackass this conclusively proves that
>>>>>>>>> HHH does emulate itself emulating DDD.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/plolcott/x86utm/blob/master/Halt7.c
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Nope.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> It proves that your HHH fails to meet its requirement to be pure function
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> It proves that HHH does emulate itself emulating DDD.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Once we get through this point then we know that DDD
>>>>>>> does not halt:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> DDD emulated by any HHH according to the semantics of
>>>>>>> the x86 language cannot possibly reach its "ret" instruction
>>>>>>> whether HHH aborts this emulation after N steps or never aborts.
>>>>>>> *This tells us that DDD emulated by HHH DOES NOT HALT*
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> We do not begin to examine whether or not HHH found this
>>>>>>> answer as a pure function until after we agree with the
>>>>>>> prior point.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> *In all of the history of the halting problem there*
>>>>>>> *have never been a correct return value for this*
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> typedef void (*ptr)();
>>>>>>> int HHH(ptr P);
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> int DD()
>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>    int Halt_Status = HHH(DD);
>>>>>>>    if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>>>      HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>>>    return Halt_Status;
>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> int main()
>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>    HHH(DD);
>>>>>>> }
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This is not a useful main. It is sufficient to determine whether HHH
>>>>>> returns but not to determine whther it returns the correct value.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> When we understand that the first point is correct
>>>>>>> then we know that HHH returning 0 is correct.
>>>>>>> *This has much has never ever been done before*
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This is one of the well known methods to prove that the value HHH returns
>>>>>> is incorrect. If HHH returns 0 then DD returns 0 but the meaning of 0 in
>>>>>> this context is that DD does not halt. THerefore the value returned by
>>>>>> HHH is incorrect.
>>>> 
>>>>> Every expert in the C programming language has agreed that DD
>>>>> simulated by HHH cannot possibly return.
>>>> 
>>>> No, they not. They have agreed that DD returns only if HHH returns
>>>> 0 and that HHH is not able to simulated DD to that point.
>>>> 
>>>>> Everyone disagreeing with this has dishonestly used to strawman
>>>>> deception to refer to different behavior than DD simulated by HHH.
>>>> 
>>>> The topic as specified on the subject line is the behaviour of DD and
>>>> what HHH should report. Simulation is not mentioned there.
>>> 
>>> I can't put more than a sentence on the subject line.
>> 
>> What you did put there specifies that the halting problem is on topic
>> and therefore is not "strawman".
> 
> In the specific aspect of the "do the opposite of whatever HHH says"
> halting problem input DD, HHH does correctly reject DD as non-halting
> on the basis that DD emulated by any HHH cannot possibly reach its
> own final state.

That basis does not justify the use of "correct" above. DD halts so the
rejection is incorrect. The only valid basis to call a rejection "correct"
or "incorrect" is a comparison of the result to the problem statement.

-- 
Mikko