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From: DB Cates <cates_db@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: OoL - out at first base?
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2024 15:27:15 -0600
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On 2024-12-12 12:46 p.m., LDagget wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 14:10:58 +0000, Martin Harran wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 19:12:36 +0000, j.nobel.daggett@gmail.com
>> (LDagget) wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 17:27:01 +0000, Martin Harran wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 08:32:42 -0800, erik simpson
>>>> <eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 12/10/24 11:32 PM, Martin Harran wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 13:57:43 -0800, erik simpson
>>>>>> <eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [snip for focus]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Self-catalyzing time for a strand of RNA is probably on the 
>>>>>>> order of
>>>>>>> minutes.  A black smoker need only be present for few years, and the
>>>>>>> early earth had a much hotter interior means that there were at 
>>>>>>> least
>>>>>>> millions of them.  As SJ Gould remarked "life may be as common as
>>>>>>> quartz". Indeed.  All you need is hot water and a thermal or 
>>>>>>> chemical
>>>>>>> gradient and you're good to go.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If that is the case, why have we not seen any new life forms develop
>>>>>> from scratch in the last several billion years with every form of 
>>>>>> life
>>>>>> we know descending from a single origin?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know the typical response is that in the early earth, there were
>>>>>> possibly numerous life forms with one dominant one devouring the
>>>>>> others but that seems a bit of a stretch; it doesn't explain why 
>>>>>> there
>>>>>> is no trace of anything developing in later stages and no one has 
>>>>>> ever
>>>>>> been able to create laboratory conditions that have allowed new life
>>>>>> to develop. Miller-Urey got as far as amino acids but that is a long
>>>>>> way from a life form.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just to be clear, I am not endorsing MarkE's arguments; I'm simply
>>>>>> challenging the Gould statement and the "all you need" comment.
>>>>>>
>>>>> The new life forms don't have any ecological niches available, because
>>>>> they're already occupied by fully adapted life.  You'd have to have 
>>>>> some
>>>>> strong advantage to prevail (it does happen, but rarely).
>>>>
>>>> Hmmm .... lots of niches for the development of the many many millions
>>>> of life forms that have evolved over billions of years but no niches
>>>> available for new forms to evolve. As I said, sounds like a bit of a
>>>> stretch.
>>>
>>> Only if you fail to think about it.
>>> For new life it evolve, it has to have a significant supply of ready
>>> food/energy to power its emerging metabolism. The initial chemical
>>> hypercycles would not be expected to be efficient in the way they
>>> convert
>>> their primary energy source into the synthesis of derived chemical
>>> structures like specific lipids and polymers.
>>>
>>> Moreover, any such reservoir of protolife would be a rich feeding ground
>>> for life that had already evolved.
>>
>> All of which seems to contradict Gould's statement and Eric's comment
>> that all you need is hot water and a thermal or chemical gradient and
>> you're good to go - that is what I was challenging.
>>
>> MarkE and his fellow ID travellers are wrong in trying to use the
>> exceptionality of OOL as some sort of proof of a Designer but that
>> doesn't change its exceptionality.
> 
> No. It takes creative misreading to claim that.
> Perhaps that's a bit harsh but if you don't really understand
> the thermodynamics and kinetics of biochemistry --- sufficiently
> to speculate intelligently about potential pathways towards
> abiogenesis --- then attempting to understand what competent people
> write is going to be very difficult.
> 
> As for the "all you need" comment, it's fair to add something about
> and time to 'evolve' without being eaten by life that beat you to it.
> 
Even fairer to grant that, in context (OoL), that is a given. No need to 
be explicit.

-- 
--
Don Cates ("he's a cunning rascal" PN)