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From: AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org>
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Todays rant
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2024 13:02:07 -0600
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On 12/15/2024 10:43 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 11:06:55 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> 
>> On 12/15/2024 10:11 AM, John B. wrote:
>>> On 15 Dec 2024 14:17:03 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>> On 14 Dec 2024 16:52:01 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12/14/2024 8:23 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>>> Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 20:59:41 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 12/13/2024 8:41 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/13/2024 4:06 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/13/2024 1:15 PM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     The vast majority of the mass shootings that target
>>>>>>>>>>>>> random victims in schools, malls, and theaters aren't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> committed by people with a violent past, so the argument
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that 'they never committed violence before' is pretty
>>>>>>>>>>>>> much irrelevant to the context of this conversation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, I realize there have been a number of instances  at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> clubs, bars, and parties where it seems to be related to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> gang activity. Those aren't' the types of incidents we're
>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes I agree.  The bulk of 'mass shooting' events are
>>>>>>>>>>>> tangential to ongoing criminal activity; at a party, in a
>>>>>>>>>>>> bar, drive-by in front of a crowd, etc.  Utterly different
>>>>>>>>>>>> problem (with different possible resolutions) than a
>>>>>>>>>>>> deranged but determined homicidal maniac.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't think of a deterrent/preventive strategy except
>>>>>>>>>>>> for maybe public execution and I hesitate to assume even
>>>>>>>>>>>> that would dissuade Son of Sam, Nikolas Cruz, Richard
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ramirez, Stephen Paddock, Jeffrey Dahmer, or their ilk.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> One suggestion might be to look at the social conditions in
>>>>>>>>>>> nations similar to the U.S. but with far fewer killings,
>>>>>>>>>>> especially gun killings, per capita. Emulate what they do.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "?No Way To Prevent This,? Says Only Nation Where This
>>>>>>>>>>> Regularly Happens"
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-
>>>>>>>>>>> nation-where-this-r-1848971668/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I do not have a snappy solution.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> some context:
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1386759/mass-shootings-us-other-developed-world/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/195325/murder-victims-in-the-us-by-weapon-used/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/476409/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-weapon-types-used/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Even if all the "assault weapons" were rounded up and destroyed, it
>>>>>>>>> wouldn't stop the mass murders nor any other murders. There are too
>>>>>>>>> many other ways to do it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Where there's a will, there's a way. The problem is there are people
>>>>>>>>> with the will.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It?s much much harder without a gun and particularly a gun that can be
>>>>>>>> rapidly fired.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mass murders by other means are not impossible but that much harder and can
>>>>>>>> be stopped by brave unarmed people as with the children killed in the uk
>>>>>>>> this summer, which was used by various right wing groups to inspire riots
>>>>>>>> by well lying!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But the suspect was slowed by one of the nursery workers I think she died
>>>>>>>> from her injuries but she was able to slow/prevent and a colleague got help
>>>>>>>> from the Gym? Anyway a large chap who subdued the attacker.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Don?t get me wrong I suspect that it would require more than just removing
>>>>>>>> easy access to guns etc, but even that almost certainly would have dramatic
>>>>>>>> effects.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> C'est bon
>>>>>>>>> Soloman
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, yes to some extent.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the instant example from NYC, Mr Mangione, an engineer,
>>>>>>> originally planned to make a bomb but decided the risk of
>>>>>>> injury/death to people other than his target was too high so
>>>>>>> he made his own firearm and suppressor with a 3D printer.
>>>>>>> Good luck 'regulating' a capable determined psychopath.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyone with basic machining skills can make a Sten. The
>>>>>>> simple open bolt action design is at the top end of firing
>>>>>>> rates for automatics:
>>>>>>> https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/law-order/guns-and-parts-seized-man-arrested-in-weapons-raids/news-story/e7addecb691695b3aebdb5b613181132
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I?m sure they could but that?s not the path of least resistance ie to use
>>>>>> the gun they own.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Although the path of least resistance has changed to 3D print:
>>>>>>> https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/14/australia/australia-3d-printed-firearm-intl-hnk/index.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I believe that?s more criminals trying to avoid detection, than being
>>>>>> actively used at least in the mass killings.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Criminals shooting each other and the innocents nearby are a
>>>>>>> real problem. That problem, within bounds of rationality,
>>>>>>> likely has solutions for mitigation. A madman determined to
>>>>>>> kill will not be deterred by licensing/prohibition.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Places that have removed guns or from general circulation suggest otherwise
>>>>>> plus police actions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ie in the uk use of gun means as criminals you?ve instantly made yourself
>>>>>> UK most wanted, let alone your chance of survival if the armed police
>>>>>> encounter you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A short walk through the history of anarchist and insurgent
>>>>>>> bombings shows huge losses.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Occasionally yes, but it?s much harder work and much less numbers certainly
>>>>>> per year.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> p.s. regarding 'rapid'
>>>>>>> Modern semi rifles and pistols fire all within the same rate
>>>>>>> range, which is lower than revolvers BTW and much slower
>>>>>>> than even primitive home built automatics
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Indeed any gun control would almost certainly target those. As happens in
>>>>>> various countries.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Your reference to using a gun in the UK being a serious crime is
>>>>> really what makes it less common. If we made carrying a gun while
>>>>> committing a crime a serious offense with mandatory prison it would be
>>>>> a serious detereant. Instead we just turn them loose.
>>>>>
>>>> Gun use is a rarity in the UK hence uk can respond so fully, I doubt USA
>>>> could do that nor would mandatory prison time make much difference.
>>>>
>>>> It’s the career professionals who are most put off, ie a gun means they are
>>>> instantly top of the list and will have significant resources made
>>>> available to catch them.
>>>>
>>>> And if it’s deemed remotely that your a risk to the public the armed police
>>>> who are very highly trained and your life will be viewed and a secondary
>>>> concern.
>>>>
>>>> This is why organised crime keeps away from guns as serving time in the
>>>> prison is part of the job. But being targeted both by the police and by the
>>>> armed response isn’t ie the consequences outweigh the benefits.
>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> C'est bon
>>>>> Soloman
>>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>
>>>
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