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Path: ...!3.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!feeds.news.ox.ac.uk!news.ox.ac.uk!nntp-feed.chiark.greenend.org.uk!ewrotcd!news.eyrie.org!beagle.ediacara.org!.POSTED.beagle.ediacara.org!not-for-mail From: MarkE <me22over7@gmail.com> Newsgroups: talk.origins Subject: Re: Causal determinism and non-materialist atheism Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2025 22:01:26 +1100 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 19 Sender: to%beagle.ediacara.org Approved: moderator@beagle.ediacara.org Message-ID: <vl37a4$2odq0$1@dont-email.me> References: <vku1po$1k8rs$1@dont-email.me> <6137078335c65548999ebb8dd396ad80@www.novabbs.com> <pK6cnSfZkL5w8On6nZ2dnZfqlJ-dnZ2d@giganews.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: beagle.ediacara.org; posting-host="beagle.ediacara.org:3.132.105.89"; logging-data="19742"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@beagle.ediacara.org" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird To: talk-origins@moderators.isc.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:TAB9WQRAJ5/d0aoWi3z8Dh+sGsY= Return-Path: <news@eternal-september.org> X-Original-To: talk-origins@ediacara.org Delivered-To: talk-origins@ediacara.org id C80B0229782; Wed, 01 Jan 2025 06:01:36 -0500 (EST) by beagle.ediacara.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 60AF2229765 for <talk-origins@ediacara.org>; Wed, 01 Jan 2025 06:01:34 -0500 (EST) by pi-dach.dorfdsl.de (8.18.1/8.18.1/Debian-6~bpo12+1) with ESMTPS id 501B1REk823912 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for <talk-origins@moderators.isc.org>; Wed, 1 Jan 2025 12:01:28 +0100 (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (P-256) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.eternal-september.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CEB515FD69 for <talk-origins@moderators.isc.org>; Wed, 1 Jan 2025 11:01:26 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: name/CEB515FD69; dmarc=fail (p=none dis=none) header.from=gmail.com id 669E7DC01A9; Wed, 1 Jan 2025 12:01:25 +0100 (CET) X-Injection-Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2025 12:01:25 +0100 (CET) Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: <pK6cnSfZkL5w8On6nZ2dnZfqlJ-dnZ2d@giganews.com> X-Auth-Sender: U2FsdGVkX1+TXSSYW6cWt90/DPzBBmz11wRmPHyK7sE= HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED,SPF_HELO_NONE, SPF_PASS,USER_IN_WELCOMELIST,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.6 smtp.eternal-september.org Bytes: 3503 On 1/01/2025 9:19 am, John Harshman wrote: > To put it another way, even if we can't support reason in a material > universe, adding God or any other non-material entities does nothing in > addition to support reason. It does nothing to increase any expectation > that reason exists. If the thing preventing reason is causal determinism (i.e. the billiard balls will rebound where they must), then could not an interventionist God impart the capacity to humans to override this material constraint? There remains the question of what is imparted exactly, and how does this provide the ability to truly reason? Also, I'd be wary of pressing this to a kind of dualism, whereby (crudely) our physical brains are just a front for the immaterial soul which is the real brains behind the operation. Equally (as a theist), I'd be wary of denying the existence of an immaterial soul. You may have detected that I'm somewhat uncertain of these things.