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From: AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org>
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Patching TPU innertube
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2025 07:30:48 -0600
Organization: Yellow Jersey, Ltd.
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On 1/1/2025 9:50 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/1/2025 7:49 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
>>
>>> On 1/1/2025 6:30 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 12/31/2024 6:25 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 17:54:03 +0700, John B. 
>>>>>> <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I read Frankie's violins. If I remember the test 
>>>>>>> correct it was
>>>>>>> carried out in a hotel room and the test players got 
>>>>>>> to play each
>>>>>>> instrument for something like 1 minute.
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps you should read more than one article before 
>>>>> wading into a
>>>>> discussion you know nothing about.
>>>> I have no opinion on whether violin players can tell the 
>>>> difference
>>>> between Strads and modern violins.  It's not important 
>>>> to my point,
>>>> which is that *someone* can tell the difference, even if 
>>>> it requires an
>>>> electron microscope.  That is all that is required to 
>>>> explain the
>>>> difference in price.  Even if the preference is 
>>>> completely unrelated to
>>>> the sound actually produced by the violins.
>>>> A preference for old violins based completely on history 
>>>> and emotion
>>>> may
>>>> be a problem for you, but it makes perfect sense to 
>>>> economists.  The
>>>> multi-million dollar price seems to be the biggest issue 
>>>> for you; I'm
>>>> not sure why.
>>>
>>> It's not an issue for me, and I didn't say it was. I'll 
>>> never attempt
>>> to buy a Strad, and I'll never expect to get millions if 
>>> I sell one of
>>> my fiddles.
>>>
>>> But since this is Usenet, so you can read back to see the 
>>> flow of the
>>> thread. We got into this kerfuffle from Roger's statement 
>>> that "feel"
>>> of a tire can be important, apart from rolling resistance.
>>
>> I did read the thread.
>>
>>> I expressed some skepticism, saying "Given what I've read 
>>> about
>>> violins (Stradivarius can't be told from modern ones in 
>>> blind hearing
>>> tests) and wines (cheap wines really light up pleasure 
>>> centers in the
>>> brain if tasters are told the wine is expensive), I'm 
>>> somewhat
>>> skeptical of a lot of "feel" judgements regarding bike 
>>> tires - and
>>> bikes."
>>
>> The issue you introduced with violins and wines is price. 
>> Not much was
>> made of price differences with bike tires, although if you 
>> can't tell
>> the difference cheaper is always better.  Paying large 
>> amounts for
>> something that may not be objectively better certainly 
>> seemed to bother
>> you.  If that's not really the case then perhaps you 
>> should review your
>> communication style.
> 
> OK, I'll try again - not that I'm hopeful.
> 
> I mentioned price because in our society, it's common to 
> assign a higher price to things that are reputed to be 
> better. Price is thus considered a signifier of higher quality.
> 
> What characteristic of a violin is thought to be signified 
> by a high price? Its sound. More expensive violins are 
> expected to sound better, and much more expensive violins 
> are expected to sound much better.
> 
> What characteristic of a wine is thought to be signified by 
> a high price? Its flavor. More expensive wines are expected 
> to taste better, and much more expensive wines are expected 
> to taste much better.
> 
> But do super expensive violins sound better? Do super 
> expensive wines taste better? It's not obvious! Sound and 
> taste are not directly measurable. They are "soft" 
> properties, entirely subject to the judgment of the 
> observer. So can observers _really_ tell "better" from 
> "worse" in a way that corresponds to price?
> 
> Nope. With violins, it's been shown dozens of times by 
> careful tests that listeners do not consistently rank the 
> sound of Strads far better than violins costing one five 
> hundredth as much. In careful blind tests, wines have gotten 
> similar results.
> 
> I think the same likely applies to the "feel" of bicycle 
> bits, at least among close competitors. Many of us have been 
> around here long enough to remember the blind test results 
> of several bike frames made from different grades of steel 
> tubing, back in those days of steel. Road test "experts" 
> couldn't agree on what "felt" best, and often ranked the 
> cheapest as the best riding. I suspect the same would be 
> found for the "feel" of roughly similar tires.
> 
> In a sense, on this particular issue I'm agreeing with Mr. 
> Tricycle, who claims over and over that almost _everything_ 
> is subjective.
> 
> But again, I'm not hopeful that he or you or John will agree 
> with me regarding judgments of "feel." The default posture 
> of you three is that I'm wrong no matter what I say. You 
> won't let yourself admit anything else.
> 

I know nothing of violins and very little of wine (aside 
from generally of the various Italian regions).

But I do know that price curves are parabolic not linear and 
that scarcity is an equal if not higher input than quality.

And as always Veblen value.

In short, price is a complex indicator and not always 
dispositive for quality. Individuals also apply complex and 
individual criteria, often with limited knowledge, in their 
own way, which is often not universalizable.

-- 
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971