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From: Stefan Claas <pollux@tilde.club>
Newsgroups: sci.crypt
Subject: Re: Ternary Encoding :-)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2025 16:02:38 +0100
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Stefan Claas wrote:
> Rich wrote:
> > Stefan Claas <pollux@tilde.club> wrote:
> > > Rich wrote:
> > > > Stefan Claas <pollux@tilde.club> wrote:
> > > > > Rich wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > Of course, this just brings to the front the OTP key distribution and 
> > > > > > key reuse problems.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Forgot to mention, not with my programs, because also in this case I
> > > > > can use for ternary xor encryption deterministic keys, valid for one
> > > > > day (UTC +0000), so that border control does not find keys. :-)
> > > > 
> > > > You'll have to explain further, as the above is not nearly enough 
> > > > explanation to understand what you are discussing.
> > > > 
> > > > > I have made this a standard for some of my programs, because long ago 
> > > > > I thought of key distribution problems and looked for solutions, 
> > > > > which others afaik have not thought of (yet).
> > > > 
> > > > Further explanation needed.
> > > 
> > > Ok. You talked about key distribution problems with OTPs and management.
> > > 
> > > I have Go programs which can generate as many random keys/pads per day
> > > (UTC +0000) for my programs, based on a shared secret, consisting of
> > > a password and salt.
> > > 
> > > In order that this works Alice and Bob needs only one initial session,
> > > where they transfer with a client/server program, which uses DHE/AES-GCM,
> > > the shared secret via the Tor Network, to bypass third party servers
> > > and NAT etc.
> > > 
> > > Once the shared secret is transfered securely to Alice or Bob, they use
> > > the key generation programs, which are deterministic. This means that
> > > when Alice generates todays pads/keys she does not need to transfer them
> > > to Bob, because Bob has the shared secret and can generate the same
> > > determenistic keys for each day (UTC +0000).
> > > 
> > > This procedure allows either Alice or Bob to travel, without worring that
> > > some border patrol finds pads/keys, for daily usage, or If I would do
> > > encryption with you without sending you pads in advance, via postal
> > > service etc.
> > 
> > Then the weakness here is this "generator algorithm".  A OTP is only 
> > perfectly secure if the pads are true random sequences.
> > 
> > Deterministic outputs from a seeded generator are not "true random 
> > sequences" so you will not gain the "unbreakable" aspect of a proper 
> > OTP.
> > 
> > Will it likely be /good enough/ such that those of us left here are 
> > unlikely to break it: yes.  Will it be good enough that one of the 
> > three-letter-agencies cannot break it: likely no.
> > 
> 
> That is old saying , that it is only unbreakable with TRRNG. I believe
> that nowadays PRNG can serve the purpose as well, for OTP encryption.
> 
> What patterns would distinguish a TRNG and PRNG OTP sheet, if a
> cryptanalist would look at them, or when looking at a couple of
> more sheets? The difference is IMHO none.

Example, 60 dice rolls from random.org and Go's crypto/rand

random.org:
2 4 4 4 4 5 4 6 1 2 2 1 5 6 4
5 6 4 2 2 5 3 6 1 3 1 4 1 6 4
2 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 1 1 2 6 1 6
5 1 6 5 5 4 3 1 3 6 6 5 1 3 1

Go crypt/rand:
3 5 6 3 4 5 4 1 1 6 1 5 3 2 4
3 5 1 1 6 5 3 2 3 1 1 6 3 3 3
5 3 6 3 1 2 1 6 1 1 4 1 1 5 5
1 6 3 6 6 1 4 6 1 3 2 2 1 4 1

-- 
Regards
Stefan