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From: Mark Isaak <specimenNOSPAM@curioustaxon.omy.net>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Causal determinism and non-materialist atheism
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2025 08:59:44 -0800
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On 12/30/24 3:56 AM, MarkE wrote:
> I'm (tentatively) conceding some ground in this post against CS Lewis. 
> So no particular argument here; just for your end-of-year enjoyment.
> 
> If causality holds universally, then the universe is deterministic (_in 
> principle_, and aside from quantum indeterminism).
> 
> Different versions of compatibilism attempt to reconcile causal 
> determinism with free will to varying degrees. I'm not intending to go 
> down that rabbit hole here——I'm wondering instead about rationality, 
> reason, and materialism. Here's a one claimed problem (apologies if this 
> is old ground for you):
> 
> "C.S. Lewis, in his work Miracles, builds an argument from the oddness 
> of reason, claiming that a materialist-atheist view of reality is 
> untenable. Imagine a purely materialist world: a world of only particles 
> and matter, with no purpose or normativity——only causal relationships. 
> In this world, reasoning becomes just a series of brain states caused by 
> non-rational processes. According to Lewis, this means the rationality 
> of thought processes is an illusion. If materialism is true, then there 
> are no reasons, only causes. Thus, materialism undermines reason itself."

This argument assumes that humans are reasonable, which even a casual 
look at history or current events should quickly dispel. Yes, we have 
some reasoning ability, but it is the minority of our thought processes.

> The algorithm read my mind and gave me an answer at Joe Folley's YouTube 
> channel Unsolicited Advice (which I highly recommend). He describes 
> himself as an agnostic/atheist, and offers this response:
> 
> "...Plantinga argues, there is no reason to think that survival and 
> having access to capital-T metaphysical truth are necessarily connected..."
> 
> However (and I find this fairly reasonable):
> 
> "...For Fodor, sure, our ability to reason's overall job is to help us 
> survive, but it does this through letting us know what the state of the 
> world is—that is, what is true and what we can deduce from what we 
> already know is true. At the very least, he suggests it needs to be 
> shown how exactly a creature could have mostly or all false beliefs and 
> yet still somehow be well-suited for survival. After all, beliefs are a 
> big part of what guides behavior, and if we want to successfully 
> interact with the world—that is, to achieve our aims of survival and 
> reproduction—we had better have true beliefs about how the world will 
> respond when we perform certain actions. Or, to use an example, we need 
> to know where the tigers actually are, because if they are there, they 
> can hurt us."

Fodor seems to have a one-dimensional view of mentality. I'll respond by 
raising a question. Do you suppose emotions have any survival advantage?

> Interestingly, he then goes on to disagree that atheism implies 
> materialism [...]

Well duh. There's an infinite possibility of non-materialistic non-gods. 
Besides Fodor's example of Plato's forms, ghosts are another possibility.


-- 
Mark Isaak
"Wisdom begins when you discover the difference between 'That
doesn't make sense' and 'I don't understand.'" - Mary Doria Russell