Path: ...!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Suspension losses
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2025 19:46:50 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 118
Message-ID: <vlv3dq$r4s1$8@dont-email.me>
References: <vl6hn5$3edb4$1@dont-email.me>
 <jaehnj5vhmdv672avehfcrfaurqm6rl80c@4ax.com> <vlbt3g$ic6h$2@dont-email.me>
 <v5vinjtmb0d3javtd4cuc440c7qii9tp2b@4ax.com> <vlc9u5$kls5$2@dont-email.me>
 <b8jjnj14qbssjk34bvlpj3pgvmq6o1s2jq@4ax.com> <vlcoil$n7o7$1@dont-email.me>
 <dva1ojp9dah7npllc8qmukmndqih94sbtj@4ax.com> <vlqs89$3b77g$3@dont-email.me>
 <7ee2ojpq2b75m6gsd5svace02b19qassrk@4ax.com>
 <beh2ojhsarrl8p37i446fenvlm4sa4tac8@4ax.com> <vlsfta$a60l$1@dont-email.me>
 <led5oj98n5et2ocr2tgvdlp2683c3qe41l@4ax.com>
Reply-To: frkrygow@gmail.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2025 01:46:51 +0100 (CET)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="6c8c6cd1e94efdffdc25f265db78e0a4";
	logging-data="889729"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/gFoo8MYQSBb87zfmSOX7hjrXbeUVJaKo="
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:ezTJDE4wy+SkjvYZWlXtis/EkZ0=
In-Reply-To: <led5oj98n5et2ocr2tgvdlp2683c3qe41l@4ax.com>
Content-Language: en-US
Bytes: 7407

On 1/11/2025 4:11 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
> Am Fri, 10 Jan 2025 20:01:26 -0500 schrieb Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:
> 
>> On 1/10/2025 5:18 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>>   
>>> This makes me reflect on the criticism of electronics in bicycles. ... But what about measuring the
>>> amount of power applied to the pedals, what about telling the cyclist
>>> who balanced he splits the power between left and right, by
>>> instrumenting the pedal or the bottom bracket?
>>
>> Yes, that can be done with enough sensors and electronics. But it seems
>> like useless information to me. As with much computer software, it seems
>> like "feature bloat." Why would anybody but a racer care?
> 
> Is there any reason to believe that old people like me don't have a need
> to care about training intensity, as a matter of principle?  How comes?
> 
> When using my biycles as a middle aged, healthy adult I didn't care
> about racing, didn't train and didn't try to find company in cycling
> clubs, either. I didn't visit a gym until much later. Cycling was simply
> a way to get to work quickly. During vacations it was a more
> entertaining mode of transportation than the car. Fitness, strength and
> cardio fitness came as a side effect, slowly and almost unnoticed.
> 
> This has changed. My cardio fitness is still better than what I know
> about a lot of people half my age. Nevertheless, it decreased over the
> years and it takes more and more effort to keep what you have not yet
> lost. As it is expected. The ability to measure power is helpful in
> finding the point at which intensity is sufficient and overload has not
> yet begun. This is even more true in combination with a heart rate
> monitor.
> 
> So far, this is only about aging. But there is more.
> 
> Accidents that led to damage to bones, joints and tendons in the past
> have consequences to be considered, too. There is a tendency to
> compensate weaknesses by bad postures, whithout noticing. This is both
> caused by damages and causing damages. This is to be avoided.  Measuring
> how power is applied by the feet helps detecting differences early,
> avoiding damage.
> 
> Avoiding damage is far from useless.

But individual power outputs from left and right legs? I can't imagine 
much value from that measurement. In fact, I don't believe power 
measurement is necessary for fitness. I judge by feel. It has the 
advantage of naturally compensating for days when I feel stronger or 
weaker. And it's organic!  ;-)

> My experiences with mechanical devices are at least as mixed as those
> with electronic devices.  Some very complicated electronic devices that
> I bought decades ago still work. The same applies to some that I built
> myself a long time ago.  With devices that contained both electronic and
> mechanical parts, the fault was more often on the mechanical side.
> 
> Anecdotical, I know.

To me, a big advantage is the ability to _look_ at a mechanical device 
and _see_ what's wrong. That, and the fact I can often affect a repair. 
I hate the Kleenex ethic - "It's no good any more, just throw it away."

>> Two days ago, my kid asked me to figure out why an electric blanket
>> wasn't working. The controller refused to turn on. I opened it and
>> confirmed that it was getting supply voltage. Beyond that, the pile of
>> dozens of surface mount electronic components was incomprehensible to
>> me. I suspect Jeff might have been able to diagnose it, but not me.
>> Here's a photo:
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/16972296@N08/54259119364/in/dateposted-public/
>> I know electric blankets are old technology. I know they functioned well
>> for decades with maybe a rheostat and perhaps a couple of other
>> components. Why add unrepairable complexity?
> 
> Don't know.  We use devices like the blue one in the following picture.
> <https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4b/W%C3%A4rmflasche1.jpg>
> and better isolating blankets. No electricity necessary. :-)

:-) But you imply that _I'm_ the one insufficiently modern?

> A few lights in our house are switched by set of 2 x 3 inexpensive
> wireless sockets including two remote controls, that I bought eleven
> years ago. I've still to replace the batteries. Two of the sockets are
> still spares, I have a replacement cell for the remote controls stored
> which might live even longer. Standard type, used in garage openers and
> burglar alarms, too. Selecting a channel and paring one of the four
> buttons of a remote control with one or more of the sockets is as easy
> as pie, using a line of dip switches inside those devices.  Quite
> similar to pairing switches and derailleur on our bicyles.
> 
> While I avoid having essential functionality in my house depend on
> wireless connections, I enjoy having the option, for certain use cases,
> though. 

Yuck.

I bought a new pedestal fan for our back patio last year. I've found a 
fan to be the best defense against mosquitos. The previous one still 
runs, but exposure to sunlight destroyed its plastic finger protection 
screen.

Anyway, the new one comes with a remote control, roughly the size of a 
snack cracker. Who needs a remote to adjust a fan? I rejected ceiling 
fans with remotes when I was shopping, too. It's something to lose, 
something whose battery will die, and something whose electronics will 
go bad and be unrepairable.
....
> 
> When I see a 50 year old, perfect looking bicycle, I think:
> That one must have been standing around inside most of the time, perhaps
> for a reason. 

My favorite bike is a young 39 years. It looks perfect, in part because 
I had it (and my wife's matching one) stripped and powder coated a 
couple years ago. Too many excellent memories to let it go.


-- 
- Frank Krygowski