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Path: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech Subject: Re: Lost your home? Car? Everything? Thank a bicyclist and the California road diet. Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2025 10:37:18 -0600 Organization: Yellow Jersey, Ltd. Lines: 114 Message-ID: <vm0r40$179a4$3@dont-email.me> References: <vlndvv$nhuu$3@news.mixmin.net> <vlodv5$3b77g$2@dont-email.me> <vn90ojt70g9ajd7v6s21ikpv7rnv206rma@4ax.com> <vlpbsu$3h5po$1@dont-email.me> <2iu0ojh58b53mecsuo2cgtfbe5mqqm8l37@4ax.com> <vlritm$4cbm$3@dont-email.me> <vls3jv$805j$2@dont-email.me> <vls3vt$78rv$3@dont-email.me> <vlsbsi$9dsn$3@dont-email.me> <vlsj43$aesq$1@dont-email.me> <vlub0o$n5cv$3@dont-email.me> <jbi5ojpadq9dbidkni9r42p3f5p948s3j0@4ax.com> <%KBgP.409299$EYNf.56321@fx11.iad> <2rq5oj5v44esbeag10sa1l0uk36ntttk9m@4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2025 17:37:21 +0100 (CET) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="61bedae29ff28db12af3cca2cbfc9c44"; logging-data="1287492"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19ptYjYH5KWTtVGTu2K+jzp" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:dgsflRfGUOR28JRMuqwgDtYZvEM= In-Reply-To: <2rq5oj5v44esbeag10sa1l0uk36ntttk9m@4ax.com> Content-Language: en-US On 1/11/2025 4:18 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote: > On Sat, 11 Jan 2025 21:52:59 GMT, cyclintom <cyclintom@yahoo.com> > wrote: > >> On Sat Jan 11 14:41:45 2025 Catrike Ryder wrote: >>> On Sat, 11 Jan 2025 12:50:17 -0500, Frank Krygowski >>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote: >>> >>>> On 1/10/2025 8:56 PM, AMuzi wrote: >>>>> On 1/10/2025 5:52 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote: >>>>>> On 1/10/2025 4:38 PM, AMuzi wrote: >>>>>>> On 1/10/2025 3:31 PM, pothead wrote: >>>>>>>> On 2025-01-10, Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 1/9/2025 9:05 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ... the other high speed rail projects didn't do much >>>>>>>>>> better on controlling planning, construction and maintenance costs: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "Case Study V: California High-Speed Rail" >>>>>>>>>> <https://uta.pressbooks.pub/oertgreentransport/chapter/ chapter-7- >>>>>>>>>> case-study-v-california-high-speed-rail/> >>>>>>>>>> <https://uta.pressbooks.pub/app/uploads/ sites/131/2022/09/Tbl3- >>>>>>>>>> e1664395162274.png> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I haven't checked, but methinks that a large percentage of the time >>>>>>>>>> and money are being used to fund endless litigation: >>>>>>>>>> "High Speed Rail Litigation" >>>>>>>>>> <https://www.planetizen.com/tag/high-speed-rail- litigation> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm wondering how other countries have done this. We rode the TGV in >>>>>>>>> France. It was very impressive. I've talked to folks who used Japan's >>>>>>>>> high speed rail and were very impressed. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I've rode the TGV and it was quite impressive. The rail system in >>>>>>>> Europe >>>>>>>> is so far superior to the antiquated crap we have here in US it's >>>>>>>> not even >>>>>>>> in the same league. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have no opinion but there are societal differences: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.visualcapitalist.com/vehicles-per-capita-by- country/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> which present a chicken-egg problem. >>>>>> >>>>>> Interesting data. I see that France is really not far behind the U.S. >>>>>> in cars-per-capita. I had wondered if they had far lower car ownership >>>>>> and were thus more amenable to tax dollars going to rail, but that >>>>>> doesn't seem to be the case. >>>>>> >>>>>> Anyway, other countries are doing rail pretty well. It's sort of a >>>>>> shame we can't. I'm pretty much forced to do a lot of freeway driving >>>>>> these days. I'd prefer a choice. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It's complex. >>>>> >>>>> As with the California fiasco, every mayor and county board chairman >>>>> wants a station in exchange for right of way. Add too many stations and >>>>> you have a "low speed rail' system. >>>>> >>>>> For more modest projects, the past 30 years or so most commuting for >>>>> work is suburb to suburb, not outlying areas to city center.? There's >>>>> still plenty of both in our large cities, but taxing everyone for a very >>>>> limited rail path is a hard sell. >>>>> >>>>> City to city like Shinkansen or TGV is possible and Bright Line seems to >>>>> have done that, but long term operational solvency is still up in the air. >>>>> >>>>> https://www.wftv.com/news/local/brightline-posts-multimillion-dollar- >>>>> loss-profits-2023-read-why/7FD2AR2FBRDCBIC6I3XCNGDMOY/ >>>>> >>>>> So far no passenger rail in USA operates at a profit, most are deep in >>>>> the red for operations, and the capital costs (these are large numbers!) >>>>> have negative ROI. >>>> >>>> ISTM that roads and highways don't operate at a "profit." With only the >>>> rarest exceptions They are paid for entirely by tax dollars. I'm not >>>> finding anything on private freeways, probably because they are not >>>> economically viable. (Hwy 91 in CA seems to be a unique exception with >>>> contentious results; and from what I can tell, the company that runs - >>>> or ran? - it didn't have to pay for right-of-way acquisition or >>>> construction.) >>>> >>>> So the U.S. subsidizes road transport. Other countries do that, of >>>> course, but they also subsidize rail transport. They don't expect it to >>>> make a profit any more than we expect our freeways to make a profit. >>> >>> The U S government subsidizes the transportation facilities that the >>> people prefer to use. Long distance passenger rail does not seem to be >>> one of them. It shrank because people didn't use it, unlike bicycle >>> trails and paths that are multiplying in leaps and bounds. >> >> >> >> >> There used top be the Shasta Dayolight that went from Oakland I believe to Seattle. That was a very profitable Northern Pacific route. You could sit in the lounge car which had a raised plastic top with totaol visibility through the heavily forested route to Seattle. That was MUCH more satisfying than getting on and off of a commrecial airline which at the time was DC5's or Constellations. I would gladly take that anytime. But all my Seattle side of the family are long gone and so are my Air Force friends. > > My wife convonced me once to take an ocean cruise. The room was nice, > the food was great, and I felt like I was locked up in a cage. > > -- > C'est bon > Soloman You're a better man than I. Even at girlfriend's request, I would have to decline. -- Andrew Muzi am@yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971