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From: Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Montana: "Let's make stupidity mandatory!"
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2025 14:01:36 -0500
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On 1/16/2025 12:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/16/2025 10:38 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 1/16/2025 9:28 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 1/16/2025 5:25 AM, Shadow wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 15 Jan 2025 21:28:08 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 1/15/2025 6:43 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/15/2025 5:24 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/15/2025 3:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 1/15/2025 1:02 PM, Shadow wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Jan 2025 16:57:39 GMT, cyclintom <cyclintom@yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <about who is responsible for running over cyclists>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This is especially common among illegals here in California 
>>>>>>>>>> with these
>>>>>>>>>> assholes laying on the horn even when yoyu're nowhere near them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>      The only solution is to raise taxes the rich pay. Then you
>>>>>>>>> could fund essential services like the police, and any unlawful
>>>>>>>>> extraterrestrial will be promptly arrested for driving without a
>>>>>>>>> license. And shuttled back to Mars or whatever.
>>>>>>>>>      Problem solved. Plus there might even be some money left to
>>>>>>>>> pay for medical services, education and your welfare checks.
>>>>>>>>>      []'s
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Without regard to this argument per se, isn't your preferred 
>>>>>>>> solution
>>>>>>>> to everything "Tax the rich" ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's a good one. How much money do Musk, Bezos, etc. really need? 
>>>>>>> For
>>>>>>> what?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You've written that previously.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've noted previously that the top 10% of earners represent over 
>>>>>> half of
>>>>>> income tax revenue:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/MPowG/5/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In California where policy is closer to your tastes, the problem of
>>>>>> collecting revenues shows the complex mix of factors:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://finance.yahoo.com/news/leaving-rich-americans- ditching-
>>>>>> california-163000441.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Note in link, "Ultra-wealthy Californians, the top 1%, typically pay
>>>>>> between 40-50% of the state’s personal income tax revenue."
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd say the solution is for the competing states to raise their upper
>>>>> level tax rates.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I ask again, how much is enough? What's the limiting principle?
>>>>>
>>>>> How much personal wealth is enough? Why is there no limit?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm reminded about a parable about a poor widow contributing two tiny
>>>>> coins, a trivial amount, but “Truly I tell you, this poor widow has 
>>>>> put
>>>>> more into the treasury than all the others. They all gave out of their
>>>>> wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything— all she had to
>>>>> live on.”
>>>>>
>>>>> Taxing the wealthy and super-wealthy means they may have to put off
>>>>> buying their hundredth bottle of Chateau Lafite Rothschild (whose 
>>>>> taste
>>>>> they probably can't reliably distinguish anyway). Taxing the poorer
>>>>> people means they have to put off buying a can of soup.
>>>>>
>>>>> So let's emulate the tax structures of prosperous countries with far,
>>>>> far less income disparity. I believe those policies contribute to much
>>>>> better social services, much lower crime and unrest, better paved 
>>>>> roads,
>>>>> free medical care, etc.
>>>>
>>>>     LOL. Right wingers are psychopaths. by definition. The reason
>>>> why humans became the most powerful beings on Earrth is because their
>>>> innate socialism (the willingness to share, to help others even if it
>>>> meant suffering a bit) was stronger than their egoism.
>>>>     It's impossible to convince a right winger to be "human". His
>>>> brain is not capable of being one.
>>>>     []'s
>>>>
>>>>     PS Bezos never produced anything in his life. He just passed
>>>> on other people's goods and took a very large cut. He also pays the
>>>> smallest salaries possible. Rather a bad example of someone that
>>>> should continue evading tax.
>>>
>>> Humans do organize and create language, universally. You're right on 
>>> that. But dramatic increases in prosperity, invention, development 
>>> and human flourishing generally result from private property rights 
>>> and individual effort.
>> Strongly progressive tax systems - that is, much higher taxes on the 
>> very wealthy - do not deter individual effort. They do not materially 
>> hinder private property rights. People in (e.g.) New Zealand are not 
>> worried that their homes will be taken.
>>
>> And speaking of that issue, which is the most important private 
>> property issue: What developed country is most likely to see a 
>> citizen's home taken from them?
>>
>> I suspect it's the U.S.  One major cause of homelessness is personal 
>> bankruptcy, caused by catastrophic medical fees.
>>
>> How much would Elon Musk have to pay in taxes to make him homeless?
>>
>>
> 
> It is not and that flawed analysis is why LA, after literally billions 
> wasted on 'homeless' has more than ever.

It's hard to find data, but if not a major cause, medical debt is often 
a contributor. "At the Community Economic Defense Project, or CEDP, a 
Denver nonprofit that helps people facing eviction or home foreclosure, 
about two-thirds of clients have medical debt, an informal survey by KFF 
Health News and the organization suggests. Close to half of the nearly 
70 people surveyed said medical debt played a role in their housing 
issue, with about 1 in 6 saying it was a major factor."

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2023/09/11/1198534328/medical-debt-housing-security-homelessness
>
> Bums want alcohol and dope. They do not want shelter, or food, or 
> anything else until or unless alcohol and dope are plentiful. 

Perhaps similarly, it's a mistake to pretend that the majority of 
homeless are that way due to addiction.

"Most research shows that around 1/3 of people who are homeless have 
problems with alcohol and/or drugs, and around 2/3 of these people have 
lifetime histories of drug or alcohol use disorders." Polcin, D. L. 
(2016). Co-occurring substance abuse and mental health problems among 
homeless persons: suggestions for research and practice. Journal of 
social distress and the homeless, 25(1), 1–10.

And note that of the 1/3 with those problems, we can't assess the 
direction of causation. It's reasonable to assume that a certain 
percentage of the homeless turn to self medication in an attempt to cope 
with homelessness.

> Every 
> large city has shelters. Free warm shelters. Bums avoid them as they 
> universally prohibit dope and alcohol. The bums would rather freeze on 
> the street.

But the majority of homeless people are not bums on the street.

-- 
- Frank Krygowski