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From: Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: battery fire
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2025 08:24:46 +0000
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On 19/01/2025 22:09, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
> On 1/19/25 18:03, Jeff Layman wrote:
>> On 19/01/2025 15:24, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
>>> On 1/19/25 14:09, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 19 Jan 2025 10:38:17 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
>>>> <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 1/19/25 08:25, Sergey Kubushyn wrote:
>>>>>> Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 18/01/2025 9:37 pm, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
>>>>>>>> Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 17/01/2025 21:42, Martin Brown wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lithium ion battery fires are virtually impossible to put out -
>>>>>>>>>> you have
>>>>>>>>>> to let them burn out and use boundary cooling on the neighbouring
>>>>>>>>>> modules with copious amounts of water. Looks like this one
>>>>>>>>>> managed to
>>>>>>>>>> get away from the fire fighters (which isn't supposed to happen).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We have no problem building large windmills at sea. Why not
>>>>>>>>> build the
>>>>>>>>> lithium storage facilities off the coast too? The capital cost
>>>>>>>>> would be
>>>>>>>>> higher, but once built they could be maintained in a similar way to
>>>>>>>>> those on land. And if one caught fire, there's plenty of water
>>>>>>>>> around to
>>>>>>>>> put the fire out, or at least keep it under control. For even
>>>>>>>>> greater
>>>>>>>>> safety - and expense - they could be built as submerged facilities,
>>>>>>>>> where any fire could be dealt with in seconds by opening a valve
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> letting sea water flood the building.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I seem to remember from my chemistry lessons that lithium reacts
>>>>>>>> violently with water.  Containing lithium pollution of large
>>>>>>>> areas of
>>>>>>>> the sea in stormy conditions (which is when catastrophic failure
>>>>>>>> is most
>>>>>>>> likely to occur) might be quite difficult.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It wasn't lithium but sodium. Potassium was even worse. Lithium does
>>>>>>> react in a similar way, but it schools didn't keep stocks of lithium
>>>>>>> metal around fifty years ago, and probably still don't.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What that word salad was supposed to mean?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lithium reacts violently with water. Furtermore, it is lighter than
>>>>>> ANY
>>>>>> liquid known to a man so it floats in EVERYTHING you could put on
>>>>>> it. But
>>>>>> wait, there is more -- that black crust that it gets covered with
>>>>>> in no time
>>>>>> when subjected to air is not oxide but NITRIDE. Unlike sodium and
>>>>>> potassium
>>>>>> lithium readily reacts with both oxygen and nitrogen and it burns
>>>>>> spectacularly even in pure nitrogen, without any oxygen present.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>    From direct experience, I know it is quite stable in dry air.
>>>>> It tarnishes in seconds in air with normal humidity levels,
>>>>> and yes, it reacts violently with water.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jeroen Belleman
>>>>
>>>> Depends. Yes, violently if confined, but merely vigorously if allowed
>>>> to skate around on the surface expelling energy.
>>>
>>> Have you actually seen it?
>>>
>>> I have. (It was thick foil, not a lump, and it was not confined.)
>>>
>>> Violent is the word that's fitting.
>>
>> But no worse than dropping a mint (Mento) into a coke bottle. Did the
>> lithium foil reaction result in any fire?
>>
> 
> Yes.

I stand corrected. There are circumstances when lithium metal and water 
can result in a (hydrogen) fire, with quite a few examples from an 
internet search.

-- 
Jeff