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From: AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org>
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Lost your home? Car? Everything? Thank a bicyclist and the
 California road diet.
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2025 09:45:17 -0600
Organization: Yellow Jersey, Ltd.
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On 1/20/2025 7:56 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 20.01.2025 um 13:56 schrieb Catrike Ryder:
>> On Mon, 20 Jan 2025 13:20:01 +0100, Rolf Mantel
>> <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>
>>> Am 20.01.2025 um 12:57 schrieb Catrike Ryder:
>>>> On Mon, 20 Jan 2025 11:56:01 +0100, Rolf Mantel
>>>> <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Am 18.01.2025 um 10:19 schrieb Catrike Ryder:
>>>>>> On Fri, 17 Jan 2025 21:27:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 1/17/2025 5:44 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 1/17/2025 4:13 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 1/17/2025 2:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This line?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://sfstandard.com/2024/08/02/bart-silicon- 
>>>>>>>>>> valley- extension-
>>>>>>>>>> funding/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Seems to be 'in progress' as of last summer.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> For the whole system, fares cover a whopping 22% 
>>>>>>>>>> of operating
>>>>>>>>>> expenses (that's negative ROI on capital), more 
>>>>>>>>>> than most passenger
>>>>>>>>>> rail systems.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hmm. I wonder what percentage of, say, I-880 or 
>>>>>>>>> I-680 operating
>>>>>>>>> expenses are paid for by fares. Anybody got a figure?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Impossible to know.  Too convoluted, just like most 
>>>>>>>> government
>>>>>>>> accounting (which practices would land me in prison 
>>>>>>>> post haste).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regarding tolls, I remember when Illinois paid off 
>>>>>>>> its original
>>>>>>>> Interstate bonds, at which point the toll booths 
>>>>>>>> were supposed to go
>>>>>>>> away. Never happened because it's a slush fund for 
>>>>>>>> politicians and the
>>>>>>>> civil service.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Same thing happened with the Ohio Turnpike just a few 
>>>>>>> years ago. People
>>>>>>> blamed the Republican-controlled legislature.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But if you meant the road tax, that's different 
>>>>>>>> everywhere you go and
>>>>>>>> depending on where you are 2% to 20% of road tax 
>>>>>>>> doesn't go to roads:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://reason.org/policy-brief/how-much-gas-tax- 
>>>>>>>> money-states-divert-
>>>>>>>> away-from-roads/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And, in the other view, road taxes don't cover road 
>>>>>>>> maintenance expense,
>>>>>>>> as far as we know:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/gasoline- 
>>>>>>>> taxes-and-user-fees-
>>>>>>>> pay-only-half-state-local-road-spending/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So every argument can be both right and wrong, 
>>>>>>>> depending.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Short answer: it's a mess and a muddle. Which suits 
>>>>>>>> the insider
>>>>>>>> beneficiaries just fine.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My overall point is, we've obviously decided to 
>>>>>>> subsidize road
>>>>>>> transportation. It's not immediately obvious why we 
>>>>>>> should not subsidize
>>>>>>> rail transportation. Asking fares to cover all 
>>>>>>> expenses skips over that
>>>>>>> point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We do subsidize passenger rail, and it seems pretty 
>>>>>> obvious that
>>>>>> people in the USA have not choosen to use long 
>>>>>> distance passenger rail
>>>>>> even when it is subsidized. There does seem to be 
>>>>>> interest in
>>>>>> intercity rail for trips that take less than half a 
>>>>>> day, but two or
>>>>>> three days vs 4 or 5 hours on plane for a lessor 
>>>>>> charge is easy to
>>>>>> choose even if the train ride has more legroom.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sure. Given that air traffic exists and tickets are 
>>>>> "affordable", 4
>>>>> hours of journey time are the maximum where rail 
>>>>> traffic is capable of
>>>>> gaining a significant market share of journeys between 
>>>>> "cities with an
>>>>> airport"; 3 hours of journey time between 2 city 
>>>>> centers pretty much
>>>>> kills the airline market (except feeder services) 
>>>>> between those cities:
>>>>>
>>>>> The high-speed rail line Berlin - Nuremberg - Munich 
>>>>> completely killed
>>>>> the air market Nuremberg - Berlin and halved the 
>>>>> airline market Munich -
>>>>> Berlin when it opened in 2017.
>>>>>
>>>>> Germany is just about small enough to have reached 4 
>>>>> hours journey time
>>>>> between most major cities (except Hamburg - Munich and 
>>>>> Ruhr - Munich) by
>>>>> investing in 180 mph lines.
>>>>
>>>> I never thought of it that way, but yes, four hours is 
>>>> about how long
>>>> I'd care to be locked up. I have taken air flights for 
>>>> longer, but
>>>> only because auto travel wasn't an option.
>>>>
>>>> So lets see, 180MPH for four hours will get me about 720 
>>>> miles if it
>>>> was a direct route. That wouldn't get my wife and me to 
>>>> any of our out
>>>> of state relatives. I suspect that there'd be stops 
>>>> along the way that
>>>> would make it take longer, too.
>>>
>>> Correct. Hamburg - Munich is 500 miles and not 
>>> technically but
>>> financially out of reach of those magic 4 hours 
>>> (currently it's 5:30
>>> with two major investments planned to bring it to 4:30 by 
>>> 2070).
>>>
>>> In Germany (like the east-coast corridor), we aim for one 
>>> major stop per
>>> hour to serve intermediate locations - which is why 
>>> speeds above 160 mph
>>> are rarely value-for-money; in France (larger and less 
>>> dense) they go 3
>>> or 4 hours non-stop at 200 mph to compete point-to-point 
>>> with the plane.
>>
>> Seem to me that they should have a little drone car 
>> running out in
>> front of the train looking for a cow on the track or a 
>> hickup in the
>> steel. 
> 
> Generally, high-speed tracks are fenced in to prevent damage 
> with cattle and have measuring equipment check the track 
> quality regularly.
> 
> The collision in Germany with a sheep at 210 km/h (130 mph) 
> inside a tunnel
> <https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/ 
> Eisenbahnunfall_im_Landr%C3%BCckentunnel>
> was a lot less severe than the collision with a cow at 140 
> km/h (85 mph) in Scotland in a cutting
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polmont_rail_accident>
> 
> 
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