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From: AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org>
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: People Without Meaningful Lives Seek Power Over Others
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2025 11:01:48 -0600
Organization: Yellow Jersey, Ltd.
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On 1/24/2025 10:19 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/24/2025 9:57 AM, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 24 Jan 2025 08:01:28 -0600, AMuzi 
>> <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/23/2025 9:10 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 23 Jan 2025 19:40:08 -0600, AMuzi 
>>>> <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 1/23/2025 7:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/23/2025 6:26 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/23/2025 2:53 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 1/23/2025 2:38 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 1/23/2025 12:10 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 1/23/2025 6:23 AM, zen cycle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/22/2025 10:03 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In fact, I think if we could do so, road taxes 
>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>> all be on such a per-mile-driven system, maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>> modified additionally for the weight of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>> vehicle.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Texas tried it
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.dallasnews.com/news/
>>>>>>>>>>> investigations/2024/10/23/ a-look- at- texas- 
>>>>>>>>>>> private-
>>>>>>>>>>> toll-roads/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> at least in one case, it didn't go so well:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-tollway-288- 
>>>>>>>>>>> steep-
>>>>>>>>>>> price/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Since the tollway opened in November 2020, toll 
>>>>>>>>>>> rates
>>>>>>>>>>> have increased by more than 160 percent, going from
>>>>>>>>>>> $11 for the full 20- mile round trip during peak 
>>>>>>>>>>> hours
>>>>>>>>>>> to $29 dollars now. "
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That looks like an astonishingly bad agreement 
>>>>>>>>>> between
>>>>>>>>>> the government and BTG corporation. But note that BTG
>>>>>>>>>> paid only a third of the cost of construction, so 
>>>>>>>>>> even
>>>>>>>>>> that "private" toll road was heavily subsidized by
>>>>>>>>>> taxpayers. I'm pointing this out to those who say 
>>>>>>>>>> rail
>>>>>>>>>> transport should cover all its expenses via fares, 
>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>> zero subsidies.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> To try for a broader overview of road taxes: There 
>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>> people who never drive, and people who drive far more
>>>>>>>>>> than others. Since the vast majority of road-related
>>>>>>>>>> expenses are _not_ covered by gasoline taxes, why
>>>>>>>>>> should a non-driver pay the same road taxes as a 
>>>>>>>>>> mega-
>>>>>>>>>> driver?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why not tie those taxes the amount of roadway used by
>>>>>>>>>> each driver, since that (as well as vehicle 
>>>>>>>>>> weight) is
>>>>>>>>>> a main determinant of roadway expenses? After all,
>>>>>>>>>> train fares are strongly affected by the the rider's
>>>>>>>>>> travel distance - IOW the amount of track used.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> To allay the fears of the paranoid: The government
>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't need to track your movements. You'd simply
>>>>>>>>>> need to submit evidence of your odometer total 
>>>>>>>>>> once per
>>>>>>>>>> year.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Seems to me the crew that says "Let the market 
>>>>>>>>>> decide"
>>>>>>>>>> should be all in favor of this idea.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And please note, I'm not making this argument for my
>>>>>>>>>> own benefit. Quite the opposite! As I've said, my 
>>>>>>>>>> life
>>>>>>>>>> situation has changed in a way that makes me 
>>>>>>>>>> driver far
>>>>>>>>>> more annual miles than I ever did before, and I'm 
>>>>>>>>>> doing
>>>>>>>>>> it in an EV. I'm pretty sure I'm paying less than "my
>>>>>>>>>> share" of roadway expenses.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Many (I included) would sharply resist such government
>>>>>>>>> motoring of my auto use. That's a political 
>>>>>>>>> barrier, not
>>>>>>>>> a technical issue.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Of course you, and many others, would dislike such a
>>>>>>>> scheme! So yes, like many things, it's a political 
>>>>>>>> issue.
>>>>>>>> Everybody wants better services but they don't want to
>>>>>>>> pay for them. (Our classic example here is better law
>>>>>>>> enforcement and more prisons, magically paid for by "No
>>>>>>>> new taxes!")
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Also, people who do not own or use motor vehicles 
>>>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>>>> consume myriad products all of which are 
>>>>>>>>> transported by
>>>>>>>>> motor freight (even air & rail have 'last mile' truck
>>>>>>>>> delivery). They pay road tax with every purchase, 
>>>>>>>>> plus a
>>>>>>>>> markup.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Of course. And they'd still pay that way, through 
>>>>>>>> normal
>>>>>>>> sales tax and purchase price, as they do now. But in
>>>>>>>> principle, their total tax burden should be less, since
>>>>>>>> those who made private use of the roads would be 
>>>>>>>> paying a
>>>>>>>> bit closer to their fair share.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It seems downright socialistic to charge non-drivers 
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> same as drivers for roads whose potholes and other wear
>>>>>>>> the non-drivers never generate.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The principle is sound, that we all bear the cost of
>>>>>>> shared infrastructure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But I'm saying those who "share" it less should pay less.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Non-drivers get less for their tax money.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In practice, many people are rubbed the wrong way by 
>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>> taxed for things which never get finished, never meet
>>>>>>> goals, never benefit the citizenry.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Such as Chicago property taxes, which are relatively 
>>>>>>> high
>>>>>>> for US cities, pretending to 'graduate' illiterates at
>>>>>>> $30,000 each per year. We all have our own egregious
>>>>>>> examples I'm sure from potholes to bicycle paths.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OK, I'll stop complaining unfair road taxes on non- 
>>>>>> drivers
>>>>>> if you stop complaining about Chicago student 
>>>>>> performance.
>>>>>> Deal?   ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It's merely an example with which I am very familiar.
>>>>>
>>>>> No different from Baltimore (arguably the worst public
>>>>> school system in USA) or Hartford:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://ctmirror.org/2024/09/29/cant-read-high-school- 
>>>>> ct-hartford/
>>>>
>>>> When I was in the Air Force I had a guy that was much 
>>>> the same - he
>>>> could read but didn't understand what it meant.
>>>>
>>>> He was getting along well until I sent him off to take 
>>>> his "skill
>>>> level"  test and he failed it.
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