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From: Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: People Without Meaningful Lives Seek Power Over Others
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2025 22:05:00 -0500
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On 1/24/2025 7:52 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/24/2025 6:26 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 24 Jan 2025 11:01:48 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/24/2025 10:19 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 1/24/2025 9:57 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 24 Jan 2025 08:01:28 -0600, AMuzi
>>>>> <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1/23/2025 9:10 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Jan 2025 19:40:08 -0600, AMuzi
>>>>>>> <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 1/23/2025 7:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 1/23/2025 6:26 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 1/23/2025 2:53 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/23/2025 2:38 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/23/2025 12:10 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/23/2025 6:23 AM, zen cycle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/22/2025 10:03 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In fact, I think if we could do so, road taxes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all be on such a per-mile-driven system, maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> modified additionally for the weight of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vehicle.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Texas tried it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.dallasnews.com/news/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> investigations/2024/10/23/ a-look- at- texas-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> private-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> toll-roads/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at least in one case, it didn't go so well:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-tollway-288-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> steep-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> price/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Since the tollway opened in November 2020, toll
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rates
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have increased by more than 160 percent, going from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> $11 for the full 20- mile round trip during peak
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hours
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to $29 dollars now. "
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That looks like an astonishingly bad agreement
>>>>>>>>>>>>> between
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the government and BTG corporation. But note that BTG
>>>>>>>>>>>>> paid only a third of the cost of construction, so
>>>>>>>>>>>>> even
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that "private" toll road was heavily subsidized by
>>>>>>>>>>>>> taxpayers. I'm pointing this out to those who say
>>>>>>>>>>>>> rail
>>>>>>>>>>>>> transport should cover all its expenses via fares,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> zero subsidies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To try for a broader overview of road taxes: There
>>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> people who never drive, and people who drive far more
>>>>>>>>>>>>> than others. Since the vast majority of road-related
>>>>>>>>>>>>> expenses are _not_ covered by gasoline taxes, why
>>>>>>>>>>>>> should a non-driver pay the same road taxes as a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mega-
>>>>>>>>>>>>> driver?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why not tie those taxes the amount of roadway used by
>>>>>>>>>>>>> each driver, since that (as well as vehicle
>>>>>>>>>>>>> weight) is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a main determinant of roadway expenses? After all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> train fares are strongly affected by the the rider's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> travel distance - IOW the amount of track used.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To allay the fears of the paranoid: The government
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't need to track your movements. You'd simply
>>>>>>>>>>>>> need to submit evidence of your odometer total
>>>>>>>>>>>>> once per
>>>>>>>>>>>>> year.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Seems to me the crew that says "Let the market
>>>>>>>>>>>>> decide"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> should be all in favor of this idea.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And please note, I'm not making this argument for my
>>>>>>>>>>>>> own benefit. Quite the opposite! As I've said, my
>>>>>>>>>>>>> life
>>>>>>>>>>>>> situation has changed in a way that makes me
>>>>>>>>>>>>> driver far
>>>>>>>>>>>>> more annual miles than I ever did before, and I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it in an EV. I'm pretty sure I'm paying less than "my
>>>>>>>>>>>>> share" of roadway expenses.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Many (I included) would sharply resist such government
>>>>>>>>>>>> motoring of my auto use. That's a political
>>>>>>>>>>>> barrier, not
>>>>>>>>>>>> a technical issue.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Of course you, and many others, would dislike such a
>>>>>>>>>>> scheme! So yes, like many things, it's a political
>>>>>>>>>>> issue.
>>>>>>>>>>> Everybody wants better services but they don't want to
>>>>>>>>>>> pay for them. (Our classic example here is better law
>>>>>>>>>>> enforcement and more prisons, magically paid for by "No
>>>>>>>>>>> new taxes!")
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, people who do not own or use motor vehicles
>>>>>>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>>>>>>> consume myriad products all of which are
>>>>>>>>>>>> transported by
>>>>>>>>>>>> motor freight (even air & rail have 'last mile' truck
>>>>>>>>>>>> delivery). They pay road tax with every purchase,
>>>>>>>>>>>> plus a
>>>>>>>>>>>> markup.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Of course. And they'd still pay that way, through
>>>>>>>>>>> normal
>>>>>>>>>>> sales tax and purchase price, as they do now. But in
>>>>>>>>>>> principle, their total tax burden should be less, since
>>>>>>>>>>> those who made private use of the roads would be
>>>>>>>>>>> paying a
>>>>>>>>>>> bit closer to their fair share.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It seems downright socialistic to charge non-drivers
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> same as drivers for roads whose potholes and other wear
>>>>>>>>>>> the non-drivers never generate.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The principle is sound, that we all bear the cost of
>>>>>>>>>> shared infrastructure.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But I'm saying those who "share" it less should pay less.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Non-drivers get less for their tax money.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In practice, many people are rubbed the wrong way by
>>>>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>>>>> taxed for things which never get finished, never meet
>>>>>>>>>> goals, never benefit the citizenry.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Such as Chicago property taxes, which are relatively
>>>>>>>>>> high
>>>>>>>>>> for US cities, pretending to 'graduate' illiterates at
>>>>>>>>>> $30,000 each per year. We all have our own egregious
>>>>>>>>>> examples I'm sure from potholes to bicycle paths.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> OK, I'll stop complaining unfair road taxes on non-
>>>>>>>>> drivers
>>>>>>>>> if you stop complaining about Chicago student
>>>>>>>>> performance.
>>>>>>>>> Deal?   ;-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's merely an example with which I am very familiar.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No different from Baltimore (arguably the worst public
>>>>>>>> school system in USA) or Hartford:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://ctmirror.org/2024/09/29/cant-read-high-school-
>>>>>>>> ct-hartford/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When I was in the Air Force I had a guy that was much
>>>>>>> the same - he
>>>>>>> could read but didn't understand what it meant.
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