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From: AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org>
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: People Without Meaningful Lives Seek Power Over Others
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2025 08:42:27 -0600
Organization: Yellow Jersey, Ltd.
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On 1/25/2025 6:17 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Jan 2025 08:01:36 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> 
>> On 1/24/2025 9:05 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 1/24/2025 7:52 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 1/24/2025 6:26 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 24 Jan 2025 11:01:48 -0600, AMuzi
>>>>> <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1/24/2025 10:19 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/24/2025 9:57 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 24 Jan 2025 08:01:28 -0600, AMuzi
>>>>>>>> <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 1/23/2025 9:10 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Jan 2025 19:40:08 -0600, AMuzi
>>>>>>>>>> <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/23/2025 7:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/23/2025 6:26 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/23/2025 2:53 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/23/2025 2:38 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/23/2025 12:10 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/23/2025 6:23 AM, zen cycle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/22/2025 10:03 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In fact, I think if we could do so, road taxes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all be on such a per-mile-driven system, maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> modified additionally for the weight of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vehicle.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Texas tried it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.dallasnews.com/news/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> investigations/2024/10/23/ a-look- at- texas-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> private-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> toll-roads/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at least in one case, it didn't go so well:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-tollway-288-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> steep-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> price/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Since the tollway opened in November 2020, toll
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rates
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have increased by more than 160 percent,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> $11 for the full 20- mile round trip during peak
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hours
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to $29 dollars now. "
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That looks like an astonishingly bad agreement
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> between
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the government and BTG corporation. But note
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that BTG
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> paid only a third of the cost of construction, so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that "private" toll road was heavily
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> subsidized by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taxpayers. I'm pointing this out to those who say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rail
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transport should cover all its expenses via
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fares,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> zero subsidies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To try for a broader overview of road taxes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people who never drive, and people who drive
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> far more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than others. Since the vast majority of road-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> related
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expenses are _not_ covered by gasoline taxes, why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should a non-driver pay the same road taxes as a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mega-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> driver?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why not tie those taxes the amount of roadway
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> used by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> each driver, since that (as well as vehicle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> weight) is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a main determinant of roadway expenses? After
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> train fares are strongly affected by the the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rider's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> travel distance - IOW the amount of track used.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To allay the fears of the paranoid: The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> government
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't need to track your movements. You'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simply
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need to submit evidence of your odometer total
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> once per
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> year.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Seems to me the crew that says "Let the market
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decide"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should be all in favor of this idea.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And please note, I'm not making this argument
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> own benefit. Quite the opposite! As I've said, my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> life
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> situation has changed in a way that makes me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> driver far
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more annual miles than I ever did before, and I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it in an EV. I'm pretty sure I'm paying less
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than "my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> share" of roadway expenses.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Many (I included) would sharply resist such
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> government
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> motoring of my auto use. That's a political
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> barrier, not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a technical issue.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course you, and many others, would dislike
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> scheme! So yes, like many things, it's a political
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issue.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everybody wants better services but they don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pay for them. (Our classic example here is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better law
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enforcement and more prisons, magically paid for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by "No
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> new taxes!")
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, people who do not own or use motor vehicles
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consume myriad products all of which are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transported by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> motor freight (even air & rail have 'last mile'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> truck
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> delivery). They pay road tax with every purchase,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plus a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> markup.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course. And they'd still pay that way, through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> normal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sales tax and purchase price, as they do now.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> principle, their total tax burden should be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> less, since
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those who made private use of the roads would be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> paying a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bit closer to their fair share.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems downright socialistic to charge non-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drivers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same as drivers for roads whose potholes and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other wear
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the non-drivers never generate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The principle is sound, that we all bear the cost of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> shared infrastructure.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But I'm saying those who "share" it less should
>>>>>>>>>>>> pay less.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Non-drivers get less for their tax money.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In practice, many people are rubbed the wrong way by
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