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Path: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!nntp-feed.chiark.greenend.org.uk!ewrotcd!news.eyrie.org!beagle.ediacara.org!.POSTED.beagle.ediacara.org!not-for-mail From: MarkE <me22over7@gmail.com> Newsgroups: talk.origins Subject: Re: Paradoxes Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2025 13:52:53 +1100 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 71 Sender: to%beagle.ediacara.org Approved: moderator@beagle.ediacara.org Message-ID: <vnhdu8$37j5e$1@dont-email.me> References: <vlt8mu$h46e$1@dont-email.me> <8e030e55b2e485b9da37c2143a571915@www.novabbs.com> <vmage2$3e6d8$1@dont-email.me> <a8823f5b535c6ac8cbb532b1a5c05ce7@www.novabbs.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: beagle.ediacara.org; posting-host="beagle.ediacara.org:3.132.105.89"; logging-data="72966"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@beagle.ediacara.org" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird To: talk-origins@moderators.isc.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:8iuJ/OsWydsgIA8OAn3b/4i6Auc= Return-Path: <news@eternal-september.org> X-Original-To: talk-origins@ediacara.org Delivered-To: talk-origins@ediacara.org id AC6A622978C; Thu, 30 Jan 2025 21:53:08 -0500 (EST) by beagle.ediacara.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 43177229783 for <talk-origins@ediacara.org>; Thu, 30 Jan 2025 21:53:06 -0500 (EST) by pi-dach.dorfdsl.de (8.18.1/8.18.1/Debian-6~bpo12+1) with ESMTPS id 50V2r0sf840695 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for <talk-origins@moderators.isc.org>; Fri, 31 Jan 2025 03:53:02 +0100 (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (P-256) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.eternal-september.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 294EA60611 for <talk-origins@moderators.isc.org>; Fri, 31 Jan 2025 02:52:58 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: name/294EA60611; dmarc=fail (p=none dis=none) header.from=gmail.com id AF3EFDC01CB; Fri, 31 Jan 2025 03:52:57 +0100 (CET) X-Injection-Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2025 03:52:57 +0100 (CET) X-Auth-Sender: U2FsdGVkX190RHoRZWyTbm5+LWf2FWrFG32OlhsUmf4= In-Reply-To: <a8823f5b535c6ac8cbb532b1a5c05ce7@www.novabbs.com> Content-Language: en-US HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED,RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED,SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS,URIBL_BLOCKED, USER_IN_WELCOMELIST,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.6 smtp.eternal-september.org On 31/01/2025 2:03 am, LDagget wrote: > On Thu, 16 Jan 2025 8:35:59 +0000, MarkE wrote: > >> On 16/01/2025 8:19 am, LDagget wrote: >>> On Sat, 11 Jan 2025 8:04:55 +0000, MarkE wrote: >>> >>>> Potential paradoxes are of particular interest because if unresolved, >>>> they may indicate not just difficultly but impossibility. >>>> >>>> Benner's framing remark is noteworthy: "Discussed here is an >>>> alternative >>>> approach to guide research into the origins of life, one that >>>> focuses on >>>> 'paradoxes', pairs of statements, both grounded in theory and >>>> observation, that (taken together) suggest that the 'origins problem' >>>> cannot be solved." >>> >>> Seems to me that framing things as paradoxes is a transparently >>> deceptive sophistry. >>> >>> It displaces the actual argument's details to a categorical that >>> pretends >>> to be a fundamental problem. Thus we get chicken and egg paradoxes. >>> Can't >>> get one without the other --- see it's a paradox. Or you get sophistry >>> like >>> zeno's paradox, or the liar's paradox. They are games on sets up by >>> language >>> that superficially sounds fair and reasonable but ultimately embed a >>> hidden >>> absurdity in their premises. >>> >> >> Interesting that you go directly to pejorative and dismissal. >> >> And yet, for example, Eigen's paradox "is one of the most intractable >> puzzles in the study of the origins of life,"* which rightly identifies >> "a fundamental problem" and is decidedly not "transparently deceptive >> sophistry". A similar assessment holds for other OoL paradoxes named by >> Benner and others. >> >> Your haste to categorise Benner's statement as such seems to me to be, >> ironically, transparent sophistry. >> >> >> * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Error_threshold_(evolution) > > Nothing in this thread salvages your initial post from my criticism. > There's nothing but sophistry to support your criticism. Nothing. > And you have no sense of shame. Why do so many exchanges here devolve so rapidly into trading insults? TO has always been a flame-zone, even within tribes. But I know that you (and others) have the capacity to engage with the topic at hand, but you (and others) frequently torpedo a discussion virtually from the get-go. Your responses here are a case in point, displaying disproportionate disdain and invective, and little substance. Is this incarnation of TO (post-GG meteorite impact) the last remnant of jaded and cantankerous dinosaurs? Is there a general disregard/contempt for creationists, or anyone with a differing viewpoint? Or pressure to not break ranks and give any ground in debate? Or intrinsic ideological suspicions animosities? Often enough, frustration and a sharp response is understandable. I get that (and I'm not guiltless, either way). But this forum can't be much value or fun for anyone.