Path: ...!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Curve Tracer
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2025 14:45:31 +1100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 143
Message-ID: <vo1b93$2ln30$2@dont-email.me>
References: <ptg4qj5kueak3drig4uv6ncljgp0sq25gh@4ax.com>
 <37m4qj9v64kq4i20atrm4a5f59rpgd0n12@4ax.com>
 <9s65qj9o6felc0prbf30rlbmt7sm1lkb9q@4ax.com>
 <3u85qjd1t14atacquac79cb90buh1erfim@4ax.com>
 <slrnvq686l.41d.${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at-jusme-dot-com-if@vm46.home.jusme.com>
 <rn07qj9t1rfa028sd233tk2uv8sfduc1ec@4ax.com>
 <6n37qj97tr4frn6skqs79jh7hjrs4fnavr@4ax.com>
 <nmt7qjplcd6sscpc56d6burph92i835h7g@4ax.com>
 <dt58qjlin3q4olvu5uv55e7icd0gnhsg7c@4ax.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2025 04:45:40 +0100 (CET)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="20fb32929a93eaed7152f5057192bfe0";
	logging-data="2808928"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18VynmoIakkk/VG3RXdTrfKCgtMmdpPzWo="
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:5vsr3qzch66YiRCEZv7SoPTLEjw=
X-Antivirus-Status: Clean
X-Antivirus: Norton (VPS 250205-6, 6/2/2025), Outbound message
Content-Language: en-US
In-Reply-To: <dt58qjlin3q4olvu5uv55e7icd0gnhsg7c@4ax.com>
Bytes: 7913

On 6/02/2025 1:10 pm, john larkin wrote:
> On Wed, 05 Feb 2025 23:44:30 +0000, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, 05 Feb 2025 08:18:49 -0800, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 05 Feb 2025 15:33:11 +0000, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 5 Feb 2025 08:27:01 -0000 (UTC), Ian
>>>> <${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at-jusme-dot-com-if-you-must}@jusme.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2025-02-04, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 04 Feb 2025 23:03:34 +0000, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, 04 Feb 2025 10:19:40 -0800, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 04 Feb 2025 16:51:22 +0000, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Gentlemen,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've decided a nice project would be to build a curve tracer which
>>>>>>>>> would (because I'm a vintage nut) use a CRT display of an
>>>>>>>>> oscilloscope. From time to time I have these Big Ideas and it could
>>>>>>>>> conceivably become the latest in a long line of my unfinished
>>>>>>>>> projects.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Which curves would be essential to include for a decent, functional
>>>>>>>>> design? I know what the obvious ones are; just wondering if there are
>>>>>>>>> any more obscure ones which would be advantageous to plot. Finally,
>>>>>>>>> are there any additions one could make to a classic curve tracer's
>>>>>>>>> functionality which were omitted from the early designs (modulation
>>>>>>>>> feature at 1Mhz,100Mhz or whatever) for example?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> CD.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'd like to see pulsed avalanche behavior of mosfets, preferably to
>>>>>>>> destruction.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> C-V curves would be great too.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Stuff that's not on the data sheet.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The thing about an analog CRT scope is that it isn't quantitative and
>>>>>>>> forgets instantly. A digital scope would fix that. A curve tracer
>>>>>>>> should be able to trigger the scope and do short single-shot events.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> DSOs have their own disadvantages for this sort of thing.
>>>>>>> These people make this little thing with a CT function, but it needs a
>>>>>>> computer screen and is only capable of applying up to 10V! The stupid
>>>>>>> fucks have only used a single AAA battery for its power source. Can
>>>>>>> you believe that? I suspect there'll be a revised model along in due
>>>>>>> course which has a far better voltage range.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.peakelec.co.uk/acatalog/dca75-dca-pro-semiconductor-analyser.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Given a digital scope, most measurements can be done in a millisecond
>>>>>> or less, so a curve tracer can have some tiny power supplies and a few
>>>>>> big caps.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> People don't use bipolar transistors much any more, so one could
>>>>>> emphasize tracing mosfets and GaN fets and SiC parts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When I need to characterize a part, I hack up a setup with power
>>>>>> supplies and pulse generators and stuff.  We have a Tek scope with 4
>>>>>> isolated channels, which is handy snooping drain currents and such.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> (crossing threads... )
>>>>>
>>>>> I've sometimes wondered if a gadget could be made that analyses a component
>>>>> and spits out a spice model for it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe if fed with multiple samples of the same component it could average
>>>>> out the parameters.
>>>>
>>>> That is actually a really interesting idea if it could be implemented.
>>>> However it goes beyond my pay grade so I'll have to defer to those
>>>> more knowledgeable about generating models for an answer to that.
>>>>
>>>> John, that was the other aspect I meant to say could use updating:
>>>> instead of having rows of switches and level controls, would it not be
>>>> better to let a Pi or an Arduino do all the heavy lifting. The
>>>> programming for such a straightforward task to automate things would
>>>> be pretty elementary and make the use of the device so much faster.
>>>>
>>>> Oh - one other feature: a 'subtract' function to analyze a batch of
>>>> 'identical' devices to quickly select matched-pairs. Again that would
>>>> require some computerization.
>>>
>>> Fun, but hardly anyone needs matched pairs these days, with cheap
>>> opamps having microvolt offsets and nanovolt drift.
>>
>> I had power output devices for RF and/or audio in mind, John. Also, in
>> my particular interest of vintage equipment repair, one frequently
>> encounters double transistors: two BJTs in a single package which are
>> matched and thermally bonded by their mutual encapsulation. These are
>> unobtainium nowadays,, so subbing in two discrete devices with the
>> same characteristics bonded together is the only viable alternative.
> 
> There are lots of dual transistors around these days, but they are
> most always two die in one package, off the same wafer but otherwise
> unmatched.

On-Semi makes two monolithic duals, the NST45010 and the NST45011

https://www.onsemi.com/pdf/datasheet/nst45010mw6-d.pdf
https://www.onsemi.com/download/data-sheet/pdf/nst45011mw6-d.pdf

> Their thermals are terrible:
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/sa0oqspnuulwxyjohiu20/UPA800_80mW_one-side.jpg?rlkey=p6m43rzq2nvx5we5hlptnt1qk&raw=1
> 
> Since the two transistors in a current mirror rarely dissipate the
> same power, such a dual transistor makes a rotten mirror. They are OK
> in a small-signal diffamp where both sides have about the same small
> power dissipation.

If you want balanced power dissipation, you add a cascode transistor or 
two and make a Wilson current mirror. This also gets rid if 
base-narrowing effect (Early effect) of a higher collector voltage on 
the output side, which is another weakness of the two-transistor current 
mirror.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson_current_mirror

> There were some real monolithic duals, complex interdigitated
> patterns, not galvanically isolated, very expensive.

Analog Devices parts. They jacked up the price when the market shrank 
and the exploited the legacy customers who had designed them in years 
earlier and couldn't justify the cost of a redesign for a low volume 
product.

-- 
Bill Sloman, Sydney