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From: RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: To sum up
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2025 11:05:52 -0600
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On 2/6/2025 12:29 AM, MarkE wrote:
> Has talk.origins run its course, with this incarnation (post-GG 
> meteorite impact) the last of the dinosaurs?
> 
> And what of the Origins debate? My contention is that progressive 
> discoveries with the complexity and precision of life are making Mt 
> Improbable higher and higher [1]. ID has gained and sustained traction 
> because this trend is real. I would add to this arguments relating to 
> first-cause, fine-tuning, the Cambrian explosion, etc.
> 
> Yes, I am aware of the general disagreement here with my position.
> 
> Time will tell...

Time has already told.  One of your references is from 2006, and what 
has the ID scam done with it for the last 2 decades?  You have a 
reference fro 2022 and 2019, but the rest are all older than 2017.  The 
ID scam is just as dead as when those papers were written.  Even the 
2006 paper was published 4 years after the ID perps started running the 
bait and switch scam on creationist rubes instead of giving them their 
ID science.  Zero progress has been made for the ID scam since the bait 
and switch started to go down, and they are still running the bait and 
switch scam.  All ID has been is bait to force their obfuscation and 
denial switch scam onto the creationist rubes for over two decades.

You should likely try to get into a discussion with Denton and Behe. 
Both have realized that Biblical creationism is dead, so like you, all 
they are focusing on is the denial.  Denton realizes that the denial is 
senseless, and does not care of life originated on this planet by 
natural causes.  The Bible is obviously wrong, so there is no point in 
denying something that doesn't matter.  However life arose on this 
planet it has obviously evolved for billions of years into what we have 
today.  Even if someone figures out a likely scenario for the origin of 
life on this planet over 3 billion years ago Denton's creationist 
beliefs will remain intact.  He no longer cares how life originated on 
this planet, because however it occurred it will not be Biblical. 
Nature is not Biblical.  Christians that had a knowledge of nature have 
realized that for centuries.

We just had an argument about geocentrism, and the church fathers were 
not flat earthers.  A Greek had estimated the circumference of the earth 
by physical measurments a couple of centuries before Christ was born. 
They were all round earth geocentrists.  Kepler had to give up on the 
last vestiges of the firmament and his crystal spheres models when he 
determined that the orbits of the planets were elliptical.  Newton 
pretty much destroyed the geocentric notions, and he was born the same 
year that Galileo died under house arrest.  The Biblical cosmology and 
creation myth has been determined to be metaphorical.  It does not 
reflect what nature actually is.

Science is just the study of nature, and Christians who are scientists 
have realized that the Bible cannot be taken literally for a very long 
time.  Centuries ago some may have wanted to study nature to demonstrate 
the Biblical creation, but that faded out by around Darwin's time.  All 
those natural theologists failed to support their biblical notions, but 
some of them did contribute to an understanding of nature as it actually 
exists.

So denial is stupid and pointless at this time.  You really should have 
a discussion with Denton before he dies.  Even if life arose on this 
planet by natural mechanisms, your existing faith in creationism will 
not end.  If it mattered people would have stopped being creationists 
when the world was found to not be flat, and that there was no firmament 
above the earth for some god to open up and let the rain fall through as 
the Bible claims.

Ron Okimoto
> 
> _______
> 
> [1] Examples of ongoing upward revisions as to the complexity of life 
> (and therefore greater difficulty for naturalistic explanations):
> 
> "The more we unravel the biochemical underpinnings of life, the more 
> improbable its spontaneous emergence seems.”
> Paul Davies – The Fifth Miracle: The Search for the Origin of Life
> 
> “Researchers have shown that translation of the genetic information 
> stored in our DNA is much more complex than previously thought. This 
> discovery was made by developing a type of advanced microscopy that 
> directly visualizes the translation of the genetic code in a living cell.”
> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/06/190606133759.htm
> 
> “DNA is life's blueprint? No, there's far more to it than that Much of 
> we thought we knew about the genome is proving too simplistic, show The 
> Deeper Genome and The Developing Genome. New metaphors, anyone?”
> https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22630251-000-dna-is-lifes- 
> blueprint-no-theres-far-more-to-it-than-that/
> 
> “Recent studies have described even more layers of codes and ways the 
> genetic system is ordered in each cell. Two completely new superimposed 
> codes have been described that greatly complicate genetic regulation— 
> messenger RNA folding, and multi use codons called “duons.” In addition, 
> this week the large international FANTOM project published 16 studies 
> that demonstrate vast new complexity in the way DNA regions are 
> triggered. In fact, more and more new studies reveal higher levels of 
> genetic complexity.”
> http://jonlieffmd.com/blog/new-studies-reveal-higher-levels-of-genetic- 
> complexity
> 
> “According to Neo-Darwinian theory, major evolutionary changes occur as 
> a result of the selection of random, fortuitous genetic mutations over 
> time. However, some researchers say this theory does not satisfactorily 
> account for the appearance of radically different life forms and their 
> rich complexity, particularly that observed in vertebrates like humans.”
> https://www.thethirdwayofevolution.com/related-reading
> 
> “Though speculative, the model addresses the poignant absence in the 
> literature of any plausible account of the origin of vertebrate 
> morphology. A robust solution to the problem of morphogenesis—currently 
> an elusive goal—will only emerge from consideration of both top-down 
> (e.g., the mechanical constraints and geometric properties considered 
> here) and bottom-up (e.g., molecular and mechano-chemical) influences.”
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0079610716300542
> 
> “New research published in 2017 has discovered that the tail system is 
> far more complex than thought 50 years ago. The front design is vital to 
> transmit information to distant parts of the tail to enable it to 
> function as an effective unit for steering and propelling the sperm to 
> its end goal.[i] The system works by complex elasto-hydrodynamics that 
> we can only briefly outline here. Each tail is programmed to produce 
> slightly different movements in order for the sperm to reach the egg.”
> http://www.theoriginoflife.net/index.php? 
> option=com_content&view=article&id=628:sperm-tail-is-far-more-complex- 
> than-thought&catid=81&Itemid=108
> 
> “Recent studies have identified many exceptions to the widely held view 
> that signal sequences are simple, degenerate and interchangeable. 
> Growing evidence indicates that signal sequences contain information 
> that specifies the choice of targeting pathway, the efficiency of 
> translocation, the timing of cleavage and even postcleavage functions. 
> As a consequence, signal sequences can have important roles in 
> modulating protein biogenesis.”
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16919958
> 
> This article discusses how defining life biochemically is becoming 
> increasingly complex due to new discoveries that challenge traditional 
> boundaries. It argues that as we learn more about prebiotic chemistry 
> and extremophiles, the criteria for life become harder to pin down. This 
> evolving understanding highlights gaps in our knowledge of abiogenesis 
> and may require rethinking what constitutes life. It emphasizes the 
> interplay between known biochemical pathways and emerging, unexpected ones.
> https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsif.2021.0814? 
> utm_source=chatgpt.com
> 
>