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Path: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!nntp-feed.chiark.greenend.org.uk!ewrotcd!news.xcski.com!beagle.ediacara.org!.POSTED.beagle.ediacara.org!not-for-mail From: Mark Isaak <specimenNOSPAM@curioustaxon.omy.net> Newsgroups: talk.origins Subject: Re: Paradoxes Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2025 09:30:04 -0800 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 46 Sender: to%beagle.ediacara.org Approved: moderator@beagle.ediacara.org Message-ID: <vo84as$4tr2$2@dont-email.me> References: <vmqoq0$10mf5$2@dont-email.me> <vmv0pd$1u4nk$1@dont-email.me> <vmv6km$22ou8$2@dont-email.me> <3ne8pj575iefq71id6p87uposrvsc3124s@4ax.com> <vn2inq$2ph5q$1@dont-email.me> <jebapj5i6aku8rtqsscka5rriplua5itba@4ax.com> <vn48vk$38qmu$1@dont-email.me> <1abbpj17tuh66eujbpl1m6dldnuf7n2vun@4ax.com> <vn4f6v$3edug$1@dont-email.me> <bcnbpjh50r4v9v8igrfkq298etk7gs0e8n@4ax.com> <vn5584$3mhc6$1@dont-email.me> <k8pcpj509sre1veqqu9q9b7iu8mrcmcp4n@4ax.com> <vn635o$1q7s$4@dont-email.me> <cf3epjhhf91ihq6i5t7mnvi5bm399146bg@4ax.com> <vn75jq$inai$1@dont-email.me> <vno9ls$pjp2$1@dont-email.me> <vnpolv$14ogp$3@dont-email.me> <vnrca0$1fgpt$1@dont-email.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: beagle.ediacara.org; posting-host="beagle.ediacara.org:3.132.105.89"; logging-data="96448"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@beagle.ediacara.org" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird To: talk-origins@moderators.isc.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:CBq+3bnfnpteCohFGlO/bS9cIug= Return-Path: <news@eternal-september.org> X-Original-To: talk-origins@ediacara.org Delivered-To: talk-origins@ediacara.org id 95C1922978C; Sat, 08 Feb 2025 12:30:13 -0500 (EST) by beagle.ediacara.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 52D81229783 for <talk-origins@ediacara.org>; Sat, 08 Feb 2025 12:30:11 -0500 (EST) id ACCE01C25BA; Sat, 8 Feb 2025 17:30:07 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: talk-origins@moderators.isc.org by newsfeed.bofh.team (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A1F3A1C0797 for <talk-origins@moderators.isc.org>; Sat, 8 Feb 2025 17:30:07 +0000 (UTC) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (P-256)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.eternal-september.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E6A155FD2D for <talk-origins@moderators.isc.org>; Sat, 8 Feb 2025 17:30:05 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: name/E6A155FD2D; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=curioustaxon.omy.net id B0BFFDC01CA; Sat, 8 Feb 2025 18:30:05 +0100 (CET) X-Injection-Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2025 18:30:05 +0100 (CET) Content-Language: en-US X-Auth-Sender: U2FsdGVkX18aknZF3/H/vtu4rnYQxTytz6ZWYHUp3AI= In-Reply-To: <vnrca0$1fgpt$1@dont-email.me> tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED, SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS,URIBL_BLOCKED,USER_IN_WELCOMELIST, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.6 smtp.eternal-september.org On 2/3/25 1:26 PM, MarkE wrote: > On 3/02/2025 5:45 pm, MarkE wrote: >> On 3/02/2025 4:23 am, Mark Isaak wrote: >>> On 1/26/25 9:29 PM, MarkE wrote: >>>> [...] >>>> An atheistic worldview may preference naturalistic options, and a >>>> theistic worldview may preference the God option. We may give more >>>> weight and consideration to a particular explanation based, in part, >>>> on our belief. >>>> >>>> Moreover, science itself can tell us nothing about this postulated >>>> agent. That is the task of other epistemological domains >>>> (philosophy, theology, personal experience, etc). Nevertheless, >>>> science can provide an evidential pointer to God as a possible >>>> explanation. >>>> >>>> What do you think? >>> >>> If I believed in the god you believe in, I would be an atheist. >>> >> >> How so? >> >> Just to clarify, I believe that the material world and the study and >> understanding of it reveals much about its creator, e.g. "The heavens >> declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his >> hands." (Psalm 19:1). This is so-called "natural theology". But >> science has no access to the things of God available only through >> "special revelation". >> > > "By examining the structure and function of a snapdragon bloom, I might > reasonably conclude that the God who created the snapdragon is powerful > and wise—that is natural theology. By examining the context and meaning > of John 3:16, I might reasonably conclude that God is loving and > generous—that is revealed theology." > > https://www.gotquestions.org/natural-theology.html You have to engage with the criticisms of natural theology if you want to espouse it. Can you do that? Do you even know what they are? -- Mark Isaak "Wisdom begins when you discover the difference between 'That doesn't make sense' and 'I don't understand.'" - Mary Doria Russell