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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Sufficient knowledge of C proves that DD specifies
 non-terminating behavior to HHH
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2025 08:46:17 -0600
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On 2/11/2025 4:07 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
> Op 10.feb.2025 om 21:36 schreef olcott:
>> On 2/10/2025 12:41 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>> Op 10.feb.2025 om 13:27 schreef olcott:
>>>> On 2/10/2025 6:14 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>> Op 10.feb.2025 om 12:51 schreef olcott:
>>>>>> On 2/10/2025 2:22 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>> Op 09.feb.2025 om 20:54 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>> On 2/9/2025 1:33 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Op 09.feb.2025 om 20:04 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2/9/2025 12:54 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Op 09.feb.2025 om 18:00 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/9/2025 10:50 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 09.feb.2025 om 16:18 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/9/2025 2:13 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 09.feb.2025 om 07:10 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/8/2025 3:54 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 08.feb.2025 om 15:47 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/8/2025 3:57 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 08.feb.2025 om 06:53 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2025 7:27 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/25 8:12 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2025 5:56 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/25 11:26 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2025 6:20 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/25 10:02 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/2025 8:21 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/25 5:18 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/2025 1:51 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/25 1:26 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/2025 10:52 AM, Bonita Montero wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am 05.02.2025 um 16:11 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/5/2025 1:44 AM, Bonita Montero wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am 05.02.2025 um 04:38 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This treatment does not typically last 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> very long and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will be immediately followed by a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> riskier fourth line
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of treatment that has an initial 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> success rate much higher
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than its non progression mortality rate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Halting problem solved !
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The halting problem proof input does 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> specify non- halting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior to its decider.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.researchgate.net/ 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> publication/369971402_Simulating_Termination_Analyzer_H_is_Not_Fooled_by_Pathological_Input_D
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LOOOOOOOOL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyone that understands the C programming 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> language
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sufficiently well (thus not confused by 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the unreachable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "if" statement) correctly understands that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DD simulated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by HHH cannot possibly reach its own 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> return instruction.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And anyone that understand the halting 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem knows that isn't the question being 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> asked. The quesiton you NEED to ask is will 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the program described by the input halt 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when run?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since you start off with the wrong 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question, you logic is just faulty.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everyone that thinks my question is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> incorrect is wrong.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It has always been a mathematical mapping 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from finite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> strings to behaviors. That people do not 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> comprehend this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shows the shallowness of the depth of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> learned- by- rote
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (lack of) understanding.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, you are just incorreect as you don't know 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you are talking about.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it is a mapping of the string to the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior, and that mapping is DEFINED to be 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the halting behavior of the program the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> string describes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No this is incorrect. The input finite string 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> specifies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (not merely describes) non halting behavior to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its decider.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, since the definition of "Halting Behavior" 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the behavior of the progran being run.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It may seem that way to people that have 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> learned- by- rote
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as their only basis. It is actually nothing like 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, that *IS* the definition.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A termination analyzer computes the mapping from 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> strings to the actual behavior that these finite 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> strings
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> specify. That this is not dead obvious to everyone 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> here
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> merely proves that learned-by-rote does not 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> involve any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actual comprehension.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And the behavior the finite string specifies is the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior of running the program. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is verifiably factually incorrect.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The running program has a different execution trace
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than the behavior that DD specifies to HHH.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If so, then it proves the failure of the simulation. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The simulation aborts too soon on unsound grounds, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one cycle before the normal termination of the program.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This proves that you simply don't have sufficient
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understanding of the C programming language.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DD simulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a verified fact.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which proves that HHH fails to make a correct decision 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about DD's halting behaviour. All other methods (direct 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> execution, simulation by a world class simulator, etc.) 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> show that DD halts. But HHH fails to see it. Everyone 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with sufficient understanding of programming sees that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH is not correctly programmed when it aborts one 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cycle before the simulation would end normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> typedef void (*ptr)();
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> int HHH(ptr P);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> int DD()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    int Halt_Status = HHH(DD);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    if (Halt_Status)
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