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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Sufficient knowledge of C proves that DD specifies
 non-terminating behavior to HHH
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2025 16:00:35 -0600
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On 2/16/2025 2:16 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
> Op 16.feb.2025 om 13:58 schreef olcott:
>> On 2/16/2025 3:44 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>> Op 15.feb.2025 om 20:21 schreef olcott:
>>>> On 2/15/2025 2:06 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>> Op 14.feb.2025 om 22:18 schreef olcott:
>>>>>> On 2/14/2025 8:01 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>> Op 14.feb.2025 om 13:48 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>> On 2/14/2025 3:53 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Op 14.feb.2025 om 01:12 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2/13/2025 8:47 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Op 13.feb.2025 om 13:31 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/13/2025 3:16 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Wed, 12 Feb 2025 22:18:32 -0600 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/11/2025 2:05 PM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Tue, 11 Feb 2025 10:19:11 -0600 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/11/2025 9:23 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Mon, 10 Feb 2025 15:38:37 -0600 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/10/2025 2:48 PM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Mon, 10 Feb 2025 08:46:21 -0600 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/10/2025 6:52 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Mon, 10 Feb 2025 06:02:48 -0600 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/10/2025 5:16 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Sun, 09 Feb 2025 13:54:39 -0600 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/9/2025 1:33 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 09.feb.2025 om 20:04 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/9/2025 12:54 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 09.feb.2025 om 18:00 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/9/2025 10:50 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 09.feb.2025 om 16:18 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/9/2025 2:13 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 09.feb.2025 om 07:10 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/8/2025 3:54 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 08.feb.2025 om 15:47 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/8/2025 3:57 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 08.feb.2025 om 06:53 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2025 7:27 PM, Richard Damon 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/25 8:12 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2025 5:56 PM, Richard Damon 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/25 11:26 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2025 6:20 AM, Richard 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/25 10:02 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/2025 8:21 PM, Richard 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/25 5:18 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/2025 1:51 PM, Richard 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/25 1:26 PM, olcott 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/2025 10:52 AM, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bonita Montero
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which proves that HHH fails to make a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decision about DD's halting behaviour. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> methods (direct execution,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation by a world class simulator, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.) show
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that DD halts. But HHH fails to see it. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everyone with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sufficient understanding of programming 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sees that HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not correctly programmed when it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> aborts one cycle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> before the simulation would end normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The execution trace only shows that HHH 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is unable to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complete its simulation, because HHH is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unable to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulate itself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It turns out that Olcott does not even 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understand this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simple proof that HHH produces false 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> negatives. HHH is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unable to simulate itself up to the normal 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> termination.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, in other words, Olcott denies verified 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> facts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH generates false negatives, as is verified in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>               int main() {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                 return HHH(main);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>               }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but he denies it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He lacks the ability to accept simple 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> verified facts, which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> he tries to hide with a lot of irrelevant words.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is a verified fact that main cannot 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly be correctly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by HHH until its normal termination.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Indeed, which proves that HHH is unable to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulate itself
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correctly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If this was true then you could point out 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly where HHH is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> incorrect.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH is supposed to be a decider, i.e. halt and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> return the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct value.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The directly executed HHH(DD) always halts and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> returns a correct
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value as soon as it correctly determines that its 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly terminate normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We were talking about HHH(HHH). If the outer HHH 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> halts according
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to spec, so does the inner, because it is the same. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Therefore it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can’t report „non-halting” and be correct. If the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inner HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn’t halt, it is not a decider.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not going to ever talk about that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh goody, you’re never getting anywhere if you reject 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> corrections.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I reject infinite deflection away from the point. The 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absolute
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> single-mined focus point is that DD correctly simulated by 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible terminate normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That IS the point. DD does nothing else than call HHH.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since there is a 5% chance that the treatment I will have 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> next month
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will kill me and this treatment is my only good chance I 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will totally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ignore anything that diverges from the point.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ok, I will wait a month then.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyone that knows the C language sufficiently well knows
>>>>>>>>>>>> that DD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate 
>>>>>>>>>>>> normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Indeed, which shows the limitation of HHH which makes that it 
>>>>>>>>>>> cannot properly decide about its input, because  it must 
>>>>>>>>>>> abort the correct simulation before it sees that the correct 
>>>>>>>>>>> simulation terminates normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The correct simulation is only the one that it sees
>>>>>>>>>> by definition. it maps ITS INPUT TO THE BEHAVIOR OF THIS INPUT.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If I close my eyes, so that I do not see the accident, I cannot 
>>>>>>>>> claim that the accident did not happen. That is the reasoning 
>>>>>>>>> of a 2 years old child.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> HHH(DD) maps the finite string input of DD to the behavior that 
>>>>>>>> it specifies. This behavior does include DD repeatedly calling 
>>>>>>>> HHH(DD)
>>>>>>>> in recursive simulation that that cannot possibly terminate 
>>>>>>>> normally.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Olcott is again dreaming of a HHH that does not abort. Dreams are 
>>>>>>> no substitute for reasoning.
>>>>>>>
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