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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Sufficient knowledge of C proves that DD specifies
 non-terminating behavior to HHH
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2025 21:54:13 -0600
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On 2/17/2025 6:51 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 2/17/25 3:25 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 2/17/2025 2:16 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>> Op 17.feb.2025 om 18:11 schreef olcott:
>>>> On 2/17/2025 9:43 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>> Op 17.feb.2025 om 15:06 schreef olcott:
>>>>>> On 2/17/2025 2:59 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>> Op 16.feb.2025 om 23:00 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>> On 2/16/2025 2:16 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Op 16.feb.2025 om 13:58 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2/16/2025 3:44 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Op 15.feb.2025 om 20:21 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/15/2025 2:06 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 14.feb.2025 om 22:18 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/14/2025 8:01 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 14.feb.2025 om 13:48 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/14/2025 3:53 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 14.feb.2025 om 01:12 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/13/2025 8:47 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 13.feb.2025 om 13:31 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/13/2025 3:16 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Wed, 12 Feb 2025 22:18:32 -0600 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/11/2025 2:05 PM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Tue, 11 Feb 2025 10:19:11 -0600 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/11/2025 9:23 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Mon, 10 Feb 2025 15:38:37 -0600 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/10/2025 2:48 PM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Mon, 10 Feb 2025 08:46:21 -0600 schrieb 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/10/2025 6:52 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Mon, 10 Feb 2025 06:02:48 -0600 schrieb 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/10/2025 5:16 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Sun, 09 Feb 2025 13:54:39 -0600 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/9/2025 1:33 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 09.feb.2025 om 20:04 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/9/2025 12:54 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 09.feb.2025 om 18:00 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/9/2025 10:50 AM, Fred. Zwarts 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 09.feb.2025 om 16:18 schreef 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/9/2025 2:13 AM, Fred. Zwarts 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 09.feb.2025 om 07:10 schreef 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/8/2025 3:54 PM, Fred. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 08.feb.2025 om 15:47 schreef 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/8/2025 3:57 AM, Fred. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 08.feb.2025 om 06:53 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2025 7:27 PM, Richard 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/25 8:12 PM, olcott 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2025 5:56 PM, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/25 11:26 AM, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2025 6:20 AM, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/25 10:02 PM, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/2025 8:21 PM, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/25 5:18 PM, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/2025 1:51 PM, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/25 1:26 PM, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/2025 10:52 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> AM, Bonita Montero
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which proves that HHH fails to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make a correct
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decision about DD's halting 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behaviour. All other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> methods (direct execution,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation by a world class 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulator, etc.) show
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that DD halts. But HHH fails to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see it. Everyone with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sufficient understanding of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> programming sees that HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not correctly programmed 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when it aborts one cycle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> before the simulation would end 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The execution trace only shows 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that HHH is unable to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complete its simulation, because 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH is unable to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulate itself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It turns out that Olcott does not 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even understand this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simple proof that HHH produces 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> false negatives. HHH is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unable to simulate itself up to the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> normal termination.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, in other words, Olcott denies 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> verified facts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH generates false negatives, as is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> verified in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>               int main() {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                 return HHH(main);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>               }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but he denies it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He lacks the ability to accept simple 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> verified facts, which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> he tries to hide with a lot of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> irrelevant words.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is a verified fact that main cannot 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly be correctly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by HHH until its normal 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> termination.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Indeed, which proves that HHH is unable 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to simulate itself
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correctly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If this was true then you could point 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out exactly where HHH is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> incorrect.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH is supposed to be a decider, i.e. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> halt and return the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct value.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The directly executed HHH(DD) always halts 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and returns a correct
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value as soon as it correctly determines 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that its input cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly terminate normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We were talking about HHH(HHH). If the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> outer HHH halts according
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to spec, so does the inner, because it is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the same. Therefore it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can’t report „non-halting” and be correct. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If the inner HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn’t halt, it is not a decider.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not going to ever talk about that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh goody, you’re never getting anywhere if you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reject corrections.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I reject infinite deflection away from the point. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The absolute
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> single-mined focus point is that DD correctly 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by HHH cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible terminate normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That IS the point. DD does nothing else than call HHH.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since there is a 5% chance that the treatment I 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will have next month
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will kill me and this treatment is my only good 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chance I will totally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ignore anything that diverges from the point.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ok, I will wait a month then.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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