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From: "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Sufficient knowledge of C proves that DD specifies
 non-terminating behavior to HHH
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 10:13:01 +0100
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Op 18.feb.2025 om 04:54 schreef olcott:
> On 2/17/2025 6:51 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 2/17/25 3:25 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 2/17/2025 2:16 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>> Op 17.feb.2025 om 18:11 schreef olcott:
>>>>> On 2/17/2025 9:43 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>> Op 17.feb.2025 om 15:06 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>> On 2/17/2025 2:59 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>> Op 16.feb.2025 om 23:00 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>> On 2/16/2025 2:16 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Op 16.feb.2025 om 13:58 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/16/2025 3:44 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 15.feb.2025 om 20:21 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/15/2025 2:06 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 14.feb.2025 om 22:18 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/14/2025 8:01 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 14.feb.2025 om 13:48 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/14/2025 3:53 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 14.feb.2025 om 01:12 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/13/2025 8:47 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 13.feb.2025 om 13:31 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/13/2025 3:16 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Wed, 12 Feb 2025 22:18:32 -0600 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/11/2025 2:05 PM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Tue, 11 Feb 2025 10:19:11 -0600 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/11/2025 9:23 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Mon, 10 Feb 2025 15:38:37 -0600 schrieb 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/10/2025 2:48 PM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Mon, 10 Feb 2025 08:46:21 -0600 schrieb 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/10/2025 6:52 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Mon, 10 Feb 2025 06:02:48 -0600 schrieb 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/10/2025 5:16 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Sun, 09 Feb 2025 13:54:39 -0600 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/9/2025 1:33 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 09.feb.2025 om 20:04 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/9/2025 12:54 PM, Fred. Zwarts 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 09.feb.2025 om 18:00 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/9/2025 10:50 AM, Fred. Zwarts 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 09.feb.2025 om 16:18 schreef 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/9/2025 2:13 AM, Fred. Zwarts 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 09.feb.2025 om 07:10 schreef 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/8/2025 3:54 PM, Fred. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 08.feb.2025 om 15:47 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/8/2025 3:57 AM, Fred. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 08.feb.2025 om 06:53 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2025 7:27 PM, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/25 8:12 PM, olcott 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2025 5:56 PM, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/25 11:26 AM, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/7/2025 6:20 AM, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/25 10:02 PM, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/2025 8:21 PM, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/25 5:18 PM, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/2025 1:51 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PM, Richard Damon 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/25 1:26 PM, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/6/2025 10:52 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> AM, Bonita Montero
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which proves that HHH fails to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make a correct
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decision about DD's halting 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behaviour. All other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> methods (direct execution,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation by a world class 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulator, etc.) show
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that DD halts. But HHH fails 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to see it. Everyone with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sufficient understanding of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> programming sees that HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not correctly programmed 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when it aborts one cycle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> before the simulation would 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> end normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The execution trace only shows 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that HHH is unable to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complete its simulation, because 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH is unable to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulate itself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It turns out that Olcott does not 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even understand this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simple proof that HHH produces 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> false negatives. HHH is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unable to simulate itself up to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the normal termination.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, in other words, Olcott denies 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> verified facts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH generates false negatives, as is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> verified in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>               int main() {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                 return HHH(main);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>               }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but he denies it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He lacks the ability to accept 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simple verified facts, which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> he tries to hide with a lot of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> irrelevant words.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is a verified fact that main 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot possibly be correctly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by HHH until its normal 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> termination.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Indeed, which proves that HHH is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unable to simulate itself
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correctly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If this was true then you could point 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out exactly where HHH is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> incorrect.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH is supposed to be a decider, i.e. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> halt and return the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct value.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The directly executed HHH(DD) always 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> halts and returns a correct
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value as soon as it correctly determines 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that its input cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly terminate normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We were talking about HHH(HHH). If the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> outer HHH halts according
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to spec, so does the inner, because it is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the same. Therefore it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can’t report „non-halting” and be correct. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If the inner HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn’t halt, it is not a decider.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not going to ever talk about that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh goody, you’re never getting anywhere if you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reject corrections.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I reject infinite deflection away from the point. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The absolute
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> single-mined focus point is that DD correctly 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by HHH cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible terminate normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That IS the point. DD does nothing else than call 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since there is a 5% chance that the treatment I 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will have next month
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will kill me and this treatment is my only good 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chance I will totally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ignore anything that diverges from the point.
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