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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Anyone with sufficient knowledge of C knows that DD specifies
 non-terminating behavior to HHH
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2025 18:31:33 -0600
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On 2/19/2025 3:01 AM, Mikko wrote:
> On 2025-02-18 11:26:25 +0000, olcott said:
> 
>> On 2/18/2025 3:24 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>> On 2025-02-17 09:05:42 +0000, Fred. Zwarts said:
>>>
>>>> Op 16.feb.2025 om 23:51 schreef olcott:
>>>>> On 2/16/2025 4:30 PM, joes wrote:
>>>>>> Am Sun, 16 Feb 2025 15:58:14 -0600 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>> On 2/16/2025 2:02 PM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>> Am Sun, 16 Feb 2025 13:24:14 -0600 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>> On 2/16/2025 10:35 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Am Sun, 16 Feb 2025 06:51:12 -0600 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/15/2025 2:49 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-02-14 12:40:04 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/14/2025 2:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-02-14 00:07:23 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/13/2025 3:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-02-13 04:21:34 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/12/2025 4:04 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-02-11 14:41:38 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> DD  correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That claim has already shown to be false. Nothing above 
>>>>>>>>>>>> shows that
>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH does not return 0. If it does DD also returns 0.
>>>>>>>>>>> When we are referring to the above DD simulated by HHH and not
>>>>>>>>>>> trying to get away with changing the subject to some other DD
>>>>>>>>>>> somewhere else
>>>>>>>>>> such as one that calls a non-aborting version of HHH
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> then anyone with sufficient knowledge of C programming knows 
>>>>>>>>>>> that no
>>>>>>>>>>> instance of DD shown above simulated by any corresponding 
>>>>>>>>>>> instance
>>>>>>>>>>> of HHH can possibly terminate normally.
>>>>>>>>>> Well, then that corresponding (by what?) HHH isn’t a decider.
>>>>>>>>> I am focusing on the isomorphic notion of a termination analyzer.
>>>>>>>> (There are other deciders that are not termination analysers.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A simulating termination analyzer correctly rejects any input that
>>>>>>>>> must be aborted to prevent its own non-termination.
>>>>>>>> Yes, in particular itself is not such an input, because we 
>>>>>>>> *know* that
>>>>>>>> it halts, because it is a decider. You can’t have your cake and 
>>>>>>>> eat it
>>>>>>>> too.
>>>>>>> I am not even using the confusing term "halts".
>>>>>>> Instead I am using in its place "terminates normally".
>>>>>>> DD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally.
>>>>>> What’s confusing about „halts”? I find it clearer as it does not 
>>>>>> imply
>>>>>> an ambiguous „abnormal termination”. How does HHH simulate DD
>>>>>> terminating abnormally, then? Why doesn’t it terminate abnormally
>>>>>> itself?
>>>>>> You can substitute the term: the input DD to HHH does not need to be
>>>>>> aborted, because the simulated decider terminates.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> typedef void (*ptr)();
>>>>> int HHH(ptr P);
>>>>>
>>>>> int DD()
>>>>> {
>>>>>   int Halt_Status = HHH(DD);
>>>>>   if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>     HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>   return Halt_Status;
>>>>> }
>>>>>
>>>>> int main()
>>>>> {
>>>>>   HHH(DD);
>>>>> }
>>>>>
>>>>> Every simulated input that must be aborted to
>>>>> prevent the non-termination of HHH is stipulated
>>>>> to be correctly rejected by HHH as non-terminating.
>>>>>
>>>> A very strange and invalid stipulation.
>>>
>>> It merely means that the words do not have their ordinary meaning.
>>>
>>
>> Unless HHH(DD) aborts its simulation of DD itself cannot possibly 
>> terminate normally.
> 
> That cannot be determined without examination of HHH, which is not in the
> scope of OP.
> 

I have given everyone here all of the complete source
code for a few years

918-1156 // All of the lines of termination analyzer HHH
1355-1370 // DD() through main()

https://github.com/plolcott/x86utm/blob/master/Halt7.c


>> Every expert in the C programming language can see this.
> 
> They can't when they can't see HHH and even then it is not obvious,
> so the claim on the subject line is false.
> 
> 


-- 
Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer