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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Anyone with sufficient knowledge of C knows that DD specifies
 non-terminating behavior to HHH
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2025 18:38:01 -0600
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On 2/19/2025 1:41 AM, joes wrote:
> Am Tue, 18 Feb 2025 22:08:20 -0600 schrieb olcott:
>> On 2/18/2025 5:32 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 2/18/25 8:37 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 2/18/2025 6:25 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 2/18/25 6:26 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 2/18/2025 3:24 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2025-02-17 09:05:42 +0000, Fred. Zwarts said:
>>>>>>>> Op 16.feb.2025 om 23:51 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>> On 2/16/2025 4:30 PM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Am Sun, 16 Feb 2025 15:58:14 -0600 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/16/2025 2:02 PM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Sun, 16 Feb 2025 13:24:14 -0600 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/16/2025 10:35 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Sun, 16 Feb 2025 06:51:12 -0600 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/15/2025 2:49 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-02-14 12:40:04 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/14/2025 2:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-02-14 00:07:23 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/13/2025 3:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-02-13 04:21:34 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/12/2025 4:04 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-02-11 14:41:38 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DD  correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That claim has already shown to be false. Nothing above
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shows that HHH does not return 0. If it does DD also
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> returns 0.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When we are referring to the above DD simulated by HHH and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not trying to get away with changing the subject to some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other DD somewhere else
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such as one that calls a non-aborting version of HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then anyone with sufficient knowledge of C programming
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> knows that no instance of DD shown above simulated by any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> corresponding instance of HHH can possibly terminate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, then that corresponding (by what?) HHH isn’t a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decider.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am focusing on the isomorphic notion of a termination
>>>>>>>>>>>>> analyzer.
>>>>>>>>>>>> (There are other deciders that are not termination analysers.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>> A simulating termination analyzer correctly rejects any input
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that must be aborted to prevent its own non-termination.

>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, in particular itself is not such an input, because we
>>>>>>>>>>>> *know* that it halts, because it is a decider. You can’t have
>>>>>>>>>>>> your cake and eat it too.
>>>>>>>>>>> I am not even using the confusing term "halts".
>>>>>>>>>>> Instead I am using in its place "terminates normally".
>>>>>>>>>>> DD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate
>>>>>>>>>>> normally.
>>>>>>>>>> What’s confusing about „halts”? I find it clearer as it does not
>>>>>>>>>> imply an ambiguous „abnormal termination”. How does HHH simulate
>>>>>>>>>> DD terminating abnormally, then? Why doesn’t it terminate
>>>>>>>>>> abnormally itself?
>>>>>>>>>> You can substitute the term: the input DD to HHH does not need
>>>>>>>>>> to be aborted, because the simulated decider terminates.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Every simulated input that must be aborted to prevent the
>>>>>>>>> non-termination of HHH is stipulated to be correctly rejected by
>>>>>>>>> HHH as non-terminating.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A very strange and invalid stipulation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It merely means that the words do not have their ordinary meaning.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Unless HHH(DD) aborts its simulation of DD itself cannot possibly
>>>>>> terminate normally. Every expert in the C programming language can
>>>>>> see this. People that are not experts get confused by the loop after
>>>>>> the "if" statement.
>>>>>>
>>>>> So? Since it does that, it needs to presume that the copy of itself
>>>>> it sees called does that.
>>>>>
>>>> Not at all. Perhaps your technical skill is much more woefully
>>>> deficient than I ever imagined.
>>>> Here is the point that you just missed Unless the first HHH that sees
>>>> the non-terminating pattern aborts its simulation none of them do
>>>> because they all have the exact same code.
>>>>
>>> And you miss, that since the first does it, all of them do it,
>> Unless THE FIRST ONE THAT SEES IT DOES IT NONE OF THEM DO
> That’s what he said.
> 

Also when the first one does it none of the rest of them
can possibly do it because that are no longer being simulated.

-- 
Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer