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From: dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN
 --- Saving Democracy
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2025 16:47:31 -0500
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On 2/24/2025 4:26 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 2/24/2025 9:03 AM, dbush wrote:
>> On 2/24/2025 9:48 AM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 2/24/2025 7:11 AM, dbush wrote:
>>>> On 2/24/2025 12:17 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 2/23/2025 11:08 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>> On 2/24/2025 12:01 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2/23/2025 10:45 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2/23/2025 11:42 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2/23/2025 10:09 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2/23/2025 10:20 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/23/2025 9:15 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/23/2025 9:04 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/23/2025 7:22 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/23/2025 8:13 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/23/2025 6:15 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/23/2025 7:10 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/23/2025 11:57 AM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/23/2025 12:30 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/22/2025 8:34 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/22/2025 7:33 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/22/2025 4:59 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/22/2025 5:53 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/22/2025 2:59 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/22/2025 3:53 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/22/2025 2:09 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/22/2025 3:03 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 01 int F(int i)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 02 {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 03   if (i > 10)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 04     return 0;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 05   else
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 06     return F(i+1);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 07 }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 08
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 09 int no_numbers_greater_than_10()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10 {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 11   return F(0);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 12 }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 13
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 14 int main()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 15 {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 16   F((int)no_numbers_greater_than_10);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 17   return 0;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 18 }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So if the address of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no_numbers_greater_than_10 is greater than 10 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then 0 is returned right away, otherwise as 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> most 10 recursive calls will be made before 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the condition is matched and 0 is returned.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This doesn't change the fact that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no_numbers_greater_than_10 correctly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by F cannot possibly return so 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> F(no_numbers_greater_than_10)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is correct to report non-halting, which means 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that there is no natural
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> number greater than 10.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Agreed?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think that you will find more bugs when you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> try to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provide the line number by line number 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> execution trace.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> #1 bug F never simulates anything.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is a verified fact that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> F never simulates anything when i > 10.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Remember, you agreed that the behavior of X 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by Y is defined by replacing the code of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Y with an unconditional simulator and running Y(X):
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/22/2025 1:02 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > On 2/22/2025 11:10 AM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >> On 2/22/2025 11:43 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>> The first point is DD correctly simulated by 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>> possibly terminate normally by reaching its 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> own "return"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>> instruction.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >> In other words, if the code of HHH is replaced 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with an unconditional simulator then it can be 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shown that DD is non- halting and therefore 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH(DD)==0 is correct.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > Wow finally someone that totally gets it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So the behavior of no_numbers_greater_than_10 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by F is defined by replacing the code of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> F with an unconditional simulated and running 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> F(no_numbers_greater_than_10).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The finite string input to F proves that there are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no instructions in no_numbers_greater_than_10 that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can break the recursive simulation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Try to show how no_numbers_greater_than_10 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correctly simulated by F can possibly halt.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then is ceases to be analogous to HHH(DD) because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no_numbers_greater_than_10() always terminates 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> normally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by reaching its own "return" instruction.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In other words, when we actually run 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no_numbers_greater_than_10() it reaches its own 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "return" instruction.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That means we've now established that the direct 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> execution of a program (which includes all the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> functions it calls UNMODIFIED) defines whether or 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not it halts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Likewise, when we actually run DD() unmodified it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also reaches its own "return" instruction.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Therefore HHH(DD)==0 is wrong.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _DD()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002133] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002134] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002136] 51         push ecx      ; make space for 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> local
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002137] 6833210000 push 00002133 ; push DD
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000213c] e882f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH(DD)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002141] 83c404     add esp,+04
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002144] 8945fc     mov [ebp-04],eax
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002147] 837dfc00   cmp dword [ebp-04],+00
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000214b] 7402       jz 0000214f
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000214d] ebfe       jmp 0000214d
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000214f] 8b45fc     mov eax,[ebp-04]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002152] 8be5       mov esp,ebp
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002154] 5d         pop ebp
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002155] c3         ret
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0035) [00002155]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When DD is correctly simulated by HHH according to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the behavior
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the above machine code specifies then the call 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from DD
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to HHH(DD) cannot possibly return and this correctly 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DD cannot possibly terminate  normally by reaching 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its own machine
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> address 00002155.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Similarly:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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