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From: Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: DD specifies non-terminating behavior to HHH --- RECURSIVE CHAIN
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2025 10:39:43 +0200
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On 2025-02-25 21:16:30 +0000, olcott said:

> On 2/25/2025 8:35 AM, Mikko wrote:
>> On 2025-02-24 23:22:23 +0000, olcott said:
>> 
>>> On 2/24/2025 2:32 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>> On 2025-02-23 17:34:21 +0000, olcott said:
>>>> 
>>>>> On 2/23/2025 3:43 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>> On 2025-02-22 16:06:08 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 2/22/2025 2:45 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2025-02-21 22:39:01 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 2/21/2025 2:10 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-02-20 13:02:28 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/20/2025 2:28 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-02-20 04:08:05 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/16/2025 6:55 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Sat, 15 Feb 2025 21:25:12 -0600 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/15/2025 4:03 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Fri, 14 Feb 2025 17:29:45 -0600 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/14/2025 6:54 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Thu, 13 Feb 2025 22:21:59 -0600 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/13/2025 9:15 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/13/25 7:07 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/13/2025 3:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-02-13 04:21:34 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/12/2025 4:04 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-02-11 14:41:38 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course not. However, the fact that no reference to that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> article before or when HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That paper and its code are the only thing that I have been
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> talking about in this forum for several years.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't matter when you don't say that you are talking about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that paper.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyway, that is irrelevant to the fact that the subject line
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contains a false claim.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is a truism and not one person on the face of the Earth can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly show otherwise.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The fact that the claim on subject line is false is not a truism.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In order to determine the claim is false one needs some knowledge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is not obvious.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When you try to show the steps attempting to show that it is false
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I will point out the error.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We havm, but you are too stupid to understand it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since when DD run, it halts,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> THAT IS A DIFFERENT INSTANCE
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why are you passing the wrong input to HHH?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I will begin ignoring insincere replies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, please shut up.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But why are you not passing the same instance to HHH?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The first instance of recursion is not exactly the same as subsequent
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instances of the exact same sequence of recursive invocations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is the same with recursive simulations. When the second recursive
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> invocation has been aborted the first one terminates normally misleading
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people into believing that the recursive chain terminates normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How interesting. Might this be due to a global variable that basically
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> toggles termination?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Termination analyzers determine whether or not their input
>>>>>>>>>>>>> could possibly terminate normally. Nothing can toggle this.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Wrong. Termination analyzers deremine whether a program can run forever.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> This would define simulating termination analyzers as impossible
>>>>>>>>>>> because every input that would otherwise run forever is aborted.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> It would be aborted by external causes but not by the program itself so
>>>>>>>>>> we can say that the program could run forever.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> OK great we finally got mutual agreement on one point.
>>>>>>>>> Unless the C function HHH aborts its simulation of the C
>>>>>>>>> function DD this DD C function DOES NOT TERMINATE.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> If you mean the HHH on https://github.com/plolcott/x86utm/blob/ master/ Halt7.c
>>>>>>>> that statement is void: that HHH does abort is simulation of DD. If you mean
>>>>>>>> any function HHH allowed by OP then that statement is false.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I am not talking about one statement.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I am, about one you made: "Unless the C function HHH aborts its
>>>>>> simulation of the C function DD this DD C function DOES NOT TERMINATE."
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> If you mean the HHH on https://github.com/plolcott/x86utm/blob/ master/ Halt7.c
>>>>>> that statement is void: that HHH does abort is simulation of DD. If you mean
>>>>>> any function HHH allowed by OP then that statement is false.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Do you understand the notion of hypothetical possibilities?
>>>>> It really seems that you do not.
>>>> 
>>>> Yes, I understand that a simulator that both abort its simulation and
>>>> does not abort is not a hypothetical possibility.
>>> 
>>> HHH aborts its emulation of DD.
>>> When we imagine the exact same HHH with the
>>> one single change that it never aborts its input
>>> then we can see that this HHH cannot possibly
>>> terminate normally.
>> 
>> That's right. But OP did not specify which HHH is called by DD.
>> 
> 
> DD does not terminate normally either way so it
> is stupid to need to know which one.

OP did not exlude a HHH that aborts its simulation and returns 0. In
that case DD terminates, so DD does not specify non-terminating
behaviour.

-- 
Mikko