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From: RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windows Is A Great OS ... If Your Time Is Worth Nothing
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2025 07:58:46 -0000 (UTC)
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On 2025-02-27, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
> On 2/26/25 21:52, RonB wrote:
>> On 2025-02-26, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>> On 2025-02-26 2:55 a.m., RonB wrote:
>>>> On 2025-02-25, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>>> On 2025-02-24 9:10 p.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 24 Feb 2025 20:55:55 -0500, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you can still get Windows or MacOS
>>>>>>> running on the machine and it doesn't lock you out in any way, don't
>>>>>>> bother with Linux. It's fine, but it's not always worth the struggle.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think people are habituated to the kind of struggles you need to get
>>>>>> Windows working, so they discount those compared to effort on a Linux
>>>>>> installation. Because Linux is less familiar (even though the
>>>>>> configuration setups are better understood), that is somehow seen as a
>>>>>> greater struggle.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not even that. Even if you have the patience to set Linux up
>>>>> properly, you'll find that a good amount of your hardware won't end up
>>>>> working. There are always people here and there who claim that they get
>>>>> it working, but when you follow their own instructions and the
>>>>> distribution they've used, you get different results. Heck, I followed
>>>>> the instructions to enable the hardware encryption of my nvme through
>>>>> Linux and, lo and behold, they didn't work. It works fine in Windows if
>>>>> you follow the instructions (which require you to have a separate
>>>>> Windows installation on a USB drive), but Linux won't even get past the
>>>>> unlocking stage. That is part of why a lot of us just stick to Windows
>>>>> or MacOS.
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't take much patience to install Linux. In twenty minutes it's
>>>> installed and fully updated for me — including most of the applications.
>>>> Can't do that with Windows hobbyware. (This depends on how fast your
>>>> Internet is — I'm moving soon so my Internet may soon be slower.)
>>>
>>> Updating Linux is definitely faster than MacOS. On this machine, simply
>>> updating from 12.7.4 to 12.7.6 took an hour. It is definitely not
>>> because the Internet connection is slow either (I get 1.5Gbps at home).
>> 
>> Same experience I've had when updating MacOS (on "1 GB" i.e., 750 Mbps
>> Internet). I compiled a wxPython "wheel" for Trelby on that Mini (in the Mac
>> OS side) and it took over five days. (I thought it had quit working, but
>> I just let it go and it eventually finished. I had upgraded wxPython and
>> thought would fix the cursor issue (it doesn't stay with what you type) but
>> it worked exactly the same. I think the programming has to be changed for
>> Mac OS but nobody who is on the Trelby GitHub owns a Mac computer (I don't
>> think they do, anyhow).
>> 
>> Mac OS updates seem even slower than Windows updates, but this is an old
>> machine — still it has 16 GBs of RAM, it should be faster than it is.
>
> In my short experience with this MacBook, I'm realizing that there is 
> really no good reason to buy a Mac unless you consciously want to change 
> your computer every two or three years. A 2017 Mac is no longer 
> supported in 2025. Meanwhile, any computer capable of running Windows 10 
> will be supported at least until the end of this year. One gives you 
> seven years of support, the other gives you a decade. Meanwhile, _every_ 
> PC can install Linux once the support ends. Macs from 2020 on don't have 
> that luxury. Heck, I'm reading that Macs from 2018 on have trouble to do 
> so because of the T2 chip.

I went through the trouble of updating the Mac Mini 2012 to Monterey using 
OpenCore, but I hardly ever boot it. Mostly just to test a couple 
applications and to see if I can get Trelby working on it — almost, but not 
there. I think it's at the point that I need to know a lot more about Python 
than I'll ever learn.

>>>>> I just got my 2017 MacBook Air with MacOS Monterey yesterday. I am
>>>>> surprised that most of the software I need installs fine (except
>>>>> Microsoft Office 365 which requires at least MacOS 13), and the hardware
>>>>> is in perfect order. The SSD still has 75% health, the inside of the
>>>>> laptop was fairly clean, HDMI sound somehow works through a
>>>>> mini-DisplayPort to HDMI adapter and suspend/wake works as it should.
>>>>> There is no reason to install Linux on this, an eight-year-old Mac I got
>>>>> for $150. Considering that, I now wonder what hardware is a candidate
>>>>> for Linux.
>>>>
>>>> My 2012 Mac Mini works fine with Linux Mint 21.3. I dual boot it with Mac
>>>> Monterey (using OpenCore). I guess Monterey is now also outdated. I hear
>>>> that Ventura is a step too far for these old machines — so this Mac will
>>>> probably never be up to date again on the Mac side. On the Linux side I can
>>>> probably keep updating it for another ten years.
>>>>
>>>> So you're back in the Mac fold? (You're almost as "computer restless" as I
>>>> am.)
>>>
>>> I'm definitely not on the Mac side. I just got this machine by offering
>>> very little for an old machine on eBay. The guy wanted $200 for a 2017
>>> MacBook Air with two chargers, and I offered $150 as a joke to see if he
>>> would accept it, given the age of the machine. Surprisingly, he took it.
>>> Older machines than this one are selling for more on the site. When I
>>> realized that I had purchased it, I figured I might as well make use of
>>> it at work instead of constantly bringing my main laptop in. As old as
>>> it is, it still manages to do what I need in the classroom. If Apple
>>> annoys me about how outdated this system is, I'll simply put Linux on
>>> it. For the time being, I'm keeping it as is.
>> 
>> I own a 2015 MacBook Air that I keep planning to sell, but never get around
>> to doing it. I've pretty much waited to the point where it has almost zero
>> value now. They were well made, I'll give Apple that — though too damn
>> slick, It keeps wanting to slip out of my hands. That, and the fact that the
>> metal is soft is probably why so many of them have dented corners (this one
>> doesn't). It has 8 GBs of RAM and a 128 GB SSD, now running Monterey (I
>> think it was faster under Catalina).  I think Apple figured you
>> would use their cloud, which I don't (kind of like Google figuring you would
>> use their cloud on Chromebooks, which I don't).
>> 
>> I'm pretty sure the 2017 MacBook Air will work well for you (if you can
>> stand its "wonky" UI, which I just don't like).
>
> Well, if you want to put Linux on there, I can tell you that it's 
> running fine at the moment. Ubuntu doesn't appear to freeze on this 
> hardware the way that it always did on the Zephyrus with NVIDIA.

With an Intel GPU, I'm guessing it will be solid. Apparently nVidia is 
krytonite to Linux. 

-- 
“Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy 
what has been invented or made by the forces of good.”  —J.R.R. Tolkien