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From: RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windows Is A Great OS ... If Your Time Is Worth Nothing
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2025 19:02:19 -0000 (UTC)
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On 2025-02-28, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
> On 2/28/25 02:58, RonB wrote:
>> On 2025-02-27, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>> On 2/26/25 21:52, RonB wrote:
>>>> On 2025-02-26, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>>> On 2025-02-26 2:55 a.m., RonB wrote:
>>>>>> On 2025-02-25, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2025-02-24 9:10 p.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 24 Feb 2025 20:55:55 -0500, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you can still get Windows or MacOS
>>>>>>>>> running on the machine and it doesn't lock you out in any way, don't
>>>>>>>>> bother with Linux. It's fine, but it's not always worth the struggle.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think people are habituated to the kind of struggles you need to get
>>>>>>>> Windows working, so they discount those compared to effort on a Linux
>>>>>>>> installation. Because Linux is less familiar (even though the
>>>>>>>> configuration setups are better understood), that is somehow seen as a
>>>>>>>> greater struggle.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's not even that. Even if you have the patience to set Linux up
>>>>>>> properly, you'll find that a good amount of your hardware won't end up
>>>>>>> working. There are always people here and there who claim that they get
>>>>>>> it working, but when you follow their own instructions and the
>>>>>>> distribution they've used, you get different results. Heck, I followed
>>>>>>> the instructions to enable the hardware encryption of my nvme through
>>>>>>> Linux and, lo and behold, they didn't work. It works fine in Windows if
>>>>>>> you follow the instructions (which require you to have a separate
>>>>>>> Windows installation on a USB drive), but Linux won't even get past the
>>>>>>> unlocking stage. That is part of why a lot of us just stick to Windows
>>>>>>> or MacOS.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It doesn't take much patience to install Linux. In twenty minutes it's
>>>>>> installed and fully updated for me — including most of the applications.
>>>>>> Can't do that with Windows hobbyware. (This depends on how fast your
>>>>>> Internet is — I'm moving soon so my Internet may soon be slower.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Updating Linux is definitely faster than MacOS. On this machine, simply
>>>>> updating from 12.7.4 to 12.7.6 took an hour. It is definitely not
>>>>> because the Internet connection is slow either (I get 1.5Gbps at home).
>>>>
>>>> Same experience I've had when updating MacOS (on "1 GB" i.e., 750 Mbps
>>>> Internet). I compiled a wxPython "wheel" for Trelby on that Mini (in the Mac
>>>> OS side) and it took over five days. (I thought it had quit working, but
>>>> I just let it go and it eventually finished. I had upgraded wxPython and
>>>> thought would fix the cursor issue (it doesn't stay with what you type) but
>>>> it worked exactly the same. I think the programming has to be changed for
>>>> Mac OS but nobody who is on the Trelby GitHub owns a Mac computer (I don't
>>>> think they do, anyhow).
>>>>
>>>> Mac OS updates seem even slower than Windows updates, but this is an old
>>>> machine — still it has 16 GBs of RAM, it should be faster than it is.
>>>
>>> In my short experience with this MacBook, I'm realizing that there is
>>> really no good reason to buy a Mac unless you consciously want to change
>>> your computer every two or three years. A 2017 Mac is no longer
>>> supported in 2025. Meanwhile, any computer capable of running Windows 10
>>> will be supported at least until the end of this year. One gives you
>>> seven years of support, the other gives you a decade. Meanwhile, _every_
>>> PC can install Linux once the support ends. Macs from 2020 on don't have
>>> that luxury. Heck, I'm reading that Macs from 2018 on have trouble to do
>>> so because of the T2 chip.
>> 
>> I went through the trouble of updating the Mac Mini 2012 to Monterey using
>> OpenCore, but I hardly ever boot it. Mostly just to test a couple
>> applications and to see if I can get Trelby working on it — almost, but not
>> there. I think it's at the point that I need to know a lot more about Python
>> than I'll ever learn.
>
> For what it's worth, the 2012 Mac Mini I gave away a few months ago to 
> my wife's fag friend ran Linux Mint wonderfully, even on an HD. If I had 
> room and had a cheap monitor lying around, I would have just set it up 
> for my four-year-old to play on.

Linux Mint on my Mac Mini runs well. Actually even Monterey with OpenCore is 
acceptable, but it was better (a bit faster) under Catalina. 

>>>>>>> I just got my 2017 MacBook Air with MacOS Monterey yesterday. I am
>>>>>>> surprised that most of the software I need installs fine (except
>>>>>>> Microsoft Office 365 which requires at least MacOS 13), and the hardware
>>>>>>> is in perfect order. The SSD still has 75% health, the inside of the
>>>>>>> laptop was fairly clean, HDMI sound somehow works through a
>>>>>>> mini-DisplayPort to HDMI adapter and suspend/wake works as it should.
>>>>>>> There is no reason to install Linux on this, an eight-year-old Mac I got
>>>>>>> for $150. Considering that, I now wonder what hardware is a candidate
>>>>>>> for Linux.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My 2012 Mac Mini works fine with Linux Mint 21.3. I dual boot it with Mac
>>>>>> Monterey (using OpenCore). I guess Monterey is now also outdated. I hear
>>>>>> that Ventura is a step too far for these old machines — so this Mac will
>>>>>> probably never be up to date again on the Mac side. On the Linux side I can
>>>>>> probably keep updating it for another ten years.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So you're back in the Mac fold? (You're almost as "computer restless" as I
>>>>>> am.)
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm definitely not on the Mac side. I just got this machine by offering
>>>>> very little for an old machine on eBay. The guy wanted $200 for a 2017
>>>>> MacBook Air with two chargers, and I offered $150 as a joke to see if he
>>>>> would accept it, given the age of the machine. Surprisingly, he took it.
>>>>> Older machines than this one are selling for more on the site. When I
>>>>> realized that I had purchased it, I figured I might as well make use of
>>>>> it at work instead of constantly bringing my main laptop in. As old as
>>>>> it is, it still manages to do what I need in the classroom. If Apple
>>>>> annoys me about how outdated this system is, I'll simply put Linux on
>>>>> it. For the time being, I'm keeping it as is.
>>>>
>>>> I own a 2015 MacBook Air that I keep planning to sell, but never get around
>>>> to doing it. I've pretty much waited to the point where it has almost zero
>>>> value now. They were well made, I'll give Apple that — though too damn
>>>> slick, It keeps wanting to slip out of my hands. That, and the fact that the
>>>> metal is soft is probably why so many of them have dented corners (this one
>>>> doesn't). It has 8 GBs of RAM and a 128 GB SSD, now running Monterey (I
>>>> think it was faster under Catalina).  I think Apple figured you
>>>> would use their cloud, which I don't (kind of like Google figuring you would
>>>> use their cloud on Chromebooks, which I don't).
>>>>
>>>> I'm pretty sure the 2017 MacBook Air will work well for you (if you can
>>>> stand its "wonky" UI, which I just don't like).
>>>
>>> Well, if you want to put Linux on there, I can tell you that it's
>>> running fine at the moment. Ubuntu doesn't appear to freeze on this
>>> hardware the way that it always did on the Zephyrus with NVIDIA.
>> 
>> With an Intel GPU, I'm guessing it will be solid. Apparently nVidia is
>> krytonite to Linux.
>
> There were reports that it wouldn't work right, but I'm happy to 
> announce that it runs quite wonderfully on this machine. In fact, it's 
> going to doubly encourage me to stay away from any laptop with an NVIDIA 
> GPU the next time around. I don't think Linux has _ever_ run as 
> perfectly as it does on this MacBook Air. To Apple and its users, this 
> machine was fit for nothing other than recycling at this point. For me, 
> it's going to serve at least until the coming decade because of Linux.
>


-- 
“Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy 
what has been invented or made by the forces of good.”  —J.R.R. Tolkien