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Path: ...!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> Newsgroups: comp.theory Subject: Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86 code Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2025 21:16:43 +0100 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 51 Message-ID: <vpvpvd$cc26$1@dont-email.me> References: <vptlfu$3st19$9@dont-email.me> <d128909f1359b48293dd1823d22d671435d5640c@i2pn2.org> <vpv6ad$8sdm$1@dont-email.me> <vpv9o6$8k7n$1@dont-email.me> <vpvcta$a44l$1@dont-email.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2025 21:16:45 +0100 (CET) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="78ea2e407625ee7c3e478257aed62108"; logging-data="405574"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18TsjAqb60GDxpcfRnuHvEV" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:D5R96TmhM/z/YL+WrvBJ1KhZo7g= In-Reply-To: <vpvcta$a44l$1@dont-email.me> Content-Language: nl, en-GB Bytes: 3562 Op 01.mrt.2025 om 17:33 schreef olcott: > On 3/1/2025 9:39 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >> Op 01.mrt.2025 om 15:41 schreef olcott: >>> On 3/1/2025 6:49 AM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>> On 2/28/25 7:47 PM, olcott wrote: >>>>> _DD() >>>>> [00002133] 55 push ebp ; housekeeping >>>>> [00002134] 8bec mov ebp,esp ; housekeeping >>>>> [00002136] 51 push ecx ; make space for local >>>>> [00002137] 6833210000 push 00002133 ; push DD >>>>> [0000213c] e882f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH(DD) >>>>> [00002141] 83c404 add esp,+04 >>>>> [00002144] 8945fc mov [ebp-04],eax >>>>> [00002147] 837dfc00 cmp dword [ebp-04],+00 >>>>> [0000214b] 7402 jz 0000214f >>>>> [0000214d] ebfe jmp 0000214d >>>>> [0000214f] 8b45fc mov eax,[ebp-04] >>>>> [00002152] 8be5 mov esp,ebp >>>>> [00002154] 5d pop ebp >>>>> [00002155] c3 ret >>>>> Size in bytes:(0035) [00002155] >>>>> >>>>> When we hypothesize that the code at machine address >>>>> 0000213c is an x86 emulator then we know that DD >>>>> remains stuck in recursive emulation and cannot possibly >>>>> reach its own "ret" instruction and terminate normally. >>>>> >>>>> When we add the additional complexity that HHH also >>>>> aborts this sequence at some point then every level >>>>> of recursive emulation immediately stops. This does >>>>> not enable any DD to ever reach its "ret" instruction. >>>>> >>>> >>>> But then you just negated your first assumption, as a partial >>>> emulator that aborts its emulation, then DD no longer gets stuck. >>>> >>> >>> Cannot possibly reach its own "ret" instruction and terminate normally >> proves failure of HHH to reach the end of a proven terminating program. > > DD emulated by HHH according to the above x86 machine code of DD > cannot possibly reach its own "ret" instruction and terminate normally In other words, Olcott agrees that HHH cannot do otherwise than failing to reach the 'ret' instruction of DD (a finite string that describes a program that has been proven to reach its 'ret' instruction by direct execution). So, indeed we agree. HHH fails to complete the simulation correctly. What is the next step? We do not have much time left for the next steps. Please, continue.