Path: ...!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: sci.logic
Subject: Re: Mathematical incompleteness has always been a misconception ---
 Tarski
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2025 14:53:23 -0600
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 69
Message-ID: <vpvs44$bjn9$10@dont-email.me>
References: <vnh0sq$35mcm$1@dont-email.me> <vnqsbh$1c5sq$1@dont-email.me>
 <vnsm90$1pr86$1@dont-email.me> <vnte6s$1tra8$1@dont-email.me>
 <vnv4tf$2a43e$1@dont-email.me> <vo0249$2eqdl$1@dont-email.me>
 <vo1qae$2s4cr$1@dont-email.me> <vo2i10$302f0$1@dont-email.me>
 <vo4nj4$3f6so$1@dont-email.me> <vo5btf$3ipo2$1@dont-email.me>
 <vo7ckh$q2p$1@dont-email.me> <vo7tdg$36ra$6@dont-email.me>
 <voa09t$idij$1@dont-email.me>
 <7e532aaf77653daac5ca2b70bf26d0a3bc515abf@i2pn2.org>
 <voceuj$14r1q$1@dont-email.me> <vocp21$16c4e$1@dont-email.me>
 <vof6hb$1nh1f$1@dont-email.me> <voflif$1q1mh$2@dont-email.me>
 <vohsmu$29krm$1@dont-email.me> <vp10ic$1e7iv$2@dont-email.me>
 <vp6qjb$2ousc$1@dont-email.me> <vpb1le$3jct4$13@dont-email.me>
 <vpc4iq$3snkm$1@dont-email.me> <vpd28k$irt$9@dont-email.me>
 <vphcni$10mhs$1@dont-email.me> <vpisnk$1fr59$1@dont-email.me>
 <vpko8k$2229h$1@dont-email.me> <vplas8$25vp2$2@dont-email.me>
 <vps5o0$3kssp$1@dont-email.me> <vpti6q$3st19$3@dont-email.me>
 <vpuj4s$5g4l$1@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2025 21:53:25 +0100 (CET)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="7b4f06e456023699d538e77dba30bc57";
	logging-data="380649"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+Ymv4CYhBoo2wSvPaUkiwd"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:i1yE9cZOl/87fi7sTqHYAlwDWSw=
X-Antivirus-Status: Clean
Content-Language: en-US
X-Antivirus: Norton (VPS 250301-6, 3/1/2025), Outbound message
In-Reply-To: <vpuj4s$5g4l$1@dont-email.me>
Bytes: 4503

On 3/1/2025 3:14 AM, Mikko wrote:
> On 2025-02-28 23:51:54 +0000, olcott said:
> 
>> On 2/28/2025 5:13 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>> On 2025-02-25 20:57:44 +0000, olcott said:
>>>
>>>> On 2/25/2025 9:40 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>> On 2025-02-24 22:44:03 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2/24/2025 3:04 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2025-02-22 17:41:40 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2/22/2025 3:15 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2025-02-21 23:19:10 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 2/20/2025 2:54 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-02-18 03:59:08 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tarski anchored his whole proof in the Liar Paradox.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> More specifically, to the idea that the Liar Paradox does not 
>>>>>>>>> have a
>>>>>>>>> truth value. Do you reject that idea?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This was not what Tarski was saying.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, he was. He just assumed that his readers already know that the
>>>>>>> Liar Paradox does not have a truth value so he didn't need to be
>>>>>>> emphatically explicit about that point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In other words you never read this:
>>>>>> https://liarparadox.org/Tarski_275_276.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>> Did you? Nowhere on those pages he claims that the Liar paradox is 
>>>>> true
>>>>> nor that the Liar paradox is false.
>>>>
>>>> We shall show that the sentence x is actually undecidable and at the 
>>>> same time true.
>>>
>>> At that point Tarski has alredy known that the sentence s can be 
>>> constructed
>>> and that it can be represented by an object that the theory can handle.
>>> Later Tarski ideed shows that the sentence x is both undecidable and 
>>> true.
>>> But x is not the liar paradox.
>>
>> If you don't muck up the meanings
> 
> That is hard to avoid in contexts where you do.
> 
>> of common terms
>> with idiomatic term-of-the-art meanings then true
>> and undecidable is the impossibility of true without
>> a truth-maker.
> 
> Should this be interpreted according to the term-of-art menings or
> common language meanings or some other meanings?
> 

When we use provable(common) that means
{shown to be definitely true by whatever means}
then incompleteness and undecidability cannot exist.

-- 
Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer