Path: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Ove Interest?
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2025 08:26:41 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 213
Message-ID: <vqc7qh$304r8$1@dont-email.me>
References: <v1eesj1afpl0s266dieqqbf15kkjg986d4@4ax.com>
 <3j3fsjl1o2ve00dbrbqbirg73nmvk5tna0@4ax.com> <vq8jgp$295bb$2@dont-email.me>
 <0jkfsj9cn7dm5g6s90l1o01p8k3bem8qt9@4ax.com> <vq9us7$2g05k$2@dont-email.me>
 <o66hsj50vtkesfs1cq58dunkma5qe4qp8d@4ax.com> <vqab7g$2igoj$2@dont-email.me>
 <sdqhsj1g7m216gnkbeqmigb80h6jchhq0u@4ax.com> <vqattr$2ltco$1@dont-email.me>
 <am7isjh2seg9g7podldj34l5ch97gbr1us@4ax.com>
 <p3risjdg146hhif7q3rrqnsmeg6pkgkrp5@4ax.com> <vqbusj$2uir6$1@dont-email.me>
 <455jsj9h19799q50ko9kcd674ip6u90n0s@4ax.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2025 14:26:42 +0100 (CET)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="e3a311516feb02ba7522a563237848ea";
	logging-data="3150696"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX190Co2p9SrrDB2kscpZgyd8y7bf8nPTv38="
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:K6L1BXIfPloCSL0dPCOY1KDwd8o=
Content-Language: en-US
In-Reply-To: <455jsj9h19799q50ko9kcd674ip6u90n0s@4ax.com>

On 3/6/2025 7:42 AM, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 6 Mar 2025 05:54:09 -0500, zen cycle
> <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 3/6/2025 4:56 AM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Thu, 06 Mar 2025 11:38:24 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 5 Mar 2025 19:31:40 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/5/2025 6:34 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 5 Mar 2025 14:12:33 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/5/2025 12:35 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 5 Mar 2025 11:41:41 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 3/4/2025 11:41 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The subject of this post was originally "home shootings" and it
>>>>>>>>>> appears that you are now slip sliding away from this  subject as the
>>>>>>>>>> Swiss data shows that you don't know what you are talking about.
>>>>>>>>> John, YOU were the one who "slip slided" away from data on American home
>>>>>>>>> shootings, by pivoting to Switzerland gun ownership and shooting deaths.
>>>>>>>>> You pretended not to notice that Switzerland has far, far lower gun
>>>>>>>>> ownership rates than the U.S., and also has far lower gun homicide rates
>>>>>>>>> than the U.S.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Let's "slip slide" back to the question at hand, OK? Does having a gun
>>>>>>>>> in an American home make the home safer or more dangerous? IOW, does a
>>>>>>>>> gun make it less likely someone will be shot (presumably by "bad guys")
>>>>>>>>> or _more_ likely someone will be shot - usually by another member of the
>>>>>>>>> household?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The answer is: It's not even close. The guns make things more dangerous.
>>>>>>>>> I've found NO data showing the gun makes a household safer. Instead:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9715182/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "For every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally
>>>>>>>>> justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven
>>>>>>>>> criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Conclusions: Guns kept in homes are more likely to be involved in a
>>>>>>>>> fatal or nonfatal accidental shooting, criminal assault, or suicide
>>>>>>>>> attempt than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Or https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/full/10.7326/M21-3762
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Overall rates of homicide were more than twice as high among
>>>>>>>>> cohabitants of handgun owners than among cohabitants of nonowners
>>>>>>>>> (adjusted hazard ratio, 2.33 [95% CI, 1.78 to 3.05]). These elevated
>>>>>>>>> rates were driven largely by higher rates of homicide by firearm
>>>>>>>>> (adjusted hazard ratio, 2.83 [CI, 2.05 to 3.91]). Among homicides
>>>>>>>>> occurring at home, cohabitants of owners had sevenfold higher rates of
>>>>>>>>> being fatally shot by a spouse or intimate partner..."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I can give more links - not that it will help. But those are two of the
>>>>>>>>> studies that specifically set out to answer the question at hand. Other
>>>>>>>>> studies found the same overall facts, and found they were true even in
>>>>>>>>> "nice" neighborhoods, so don't pretend this is just a slum problem.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> These researchers came up with the questions above, and set out to
>>>>>>>>> gather data and answer them. I've asked you several times how YOU would
>>>>>>>>> answer the question in a scientific way.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You've failed to answer that. So if you have data showing guns in the
>>>>>>>>> house make it safer, post links already.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Easily munipulated "data" collected by gun haters.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Fact is that massive numbers of poeple live with guns in their homes
>>>>>>>> with no problems.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> C'est bon
>>>>>>>> Soloman
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And yet something well past 100 million USAians are armed at
>>>>>>> home.
>>>>>>> Last night for example:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://710wor.iheart.com/content/2025-03-05-onlyfans-model-amouranth-opened-fire-on-thieves-during-robbery-attempt/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some people feel firearms are unnecessary, that a kind word
>>>>>>> is enough. Again last night:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://ktla.com/news/local-news/gas-station-clerk-shot-point-blank-in-l-a-county-robbery-attempt/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let's score that. The armed woman shot the criminal and was
>>>>>>> unharmed. The unarmed clerk took a bullet point-blank and
>>>>>>> fortunately lived to become another victim of The Medical
>>>>>>> Billing Industry.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Peruse the situation, make your own decision.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Note the change in argument above. It started with did a gun in the
>>>>>> home actually make the home more dangerious and as soon as evidence
>>>>>> was posted that it just wasn't true in Switzerland Frank in a frantic
>>>>>> effort to somehow prove his point has gone slipping sliding away to
>>>>>> does a gun in the house make it safer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, it's a complex problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> Most people will never be in that situation. Trouble is, you
>>>>> don't know that, and the incidence is not negligible.
>>>>>
>>>>> Successful defense has been made with baseball bats, knives
>>>>> and other items. That is to say that while firearms can be
>>>>> handy, they are not absolutely necessary. (for a 95lb woman,
>>>>> a purse pistol makes more sense than a bat or a blade)
>>>>>
>>>>> Ownership of a firearm is one thing but being readily
>>>>> accessible and ready to fire is another. Under many local
>>>>> ordinances, firearms must be locked, which greatly stymies
>>>>> defense when decisions are final in less than a second.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then there's software. Most firearms owners do not get
>>>>> regular range time and so will more probably fumble away
>>>>> decisive time or even shoot themselves than successfully
>>>>> defend under sudden, immediate attack and under a wave of
>>>>> adrenaline.
>>>>>
>>>>> And then there's negligence and yes, sadly, would-be
>>>>> defenders do shoot relatives and other innocents after
>>>>> hearing a bump in the night.
>>>>>
>>>>> So while I'm generally supportive of firearms for self
>>>>> defense, especially home defense, I recognize this is a
>>>>> varied, complex and unclear area in many aspects.
>>>>
>>>> I came across this study just the other day
>>>> https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199310073291506
>>>> a total of 420 home killing of which 209 were committed by firearm and
>>>> 211 by other means.
>>>>
>>>> Now, any killing is a terrible thing but one has to view with some
>>>> skepticism someone that ignores the major cause of death to emphasize
>>>> the minor cause.
>>>>
>>>> Can his motives be viewed as impartial, or simply a means of
>>>> emphasizing his own opinions.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Re Frank's opinion :-(
>>>
>>> Some time ago I advanced the documented evidence that rural states
>>> appeared to have fewer firearm homicides then urban and good old
>>> Frankie said that didn't matter, But now see
>>> https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1448529/
>>> The most urban counties had 1.03 (95% confidence interval [CI]=0.87,
>>> 1.20) times the adjusted firearm death rate of the most rural
>>> counties."
>>>
>>> Which translate, in short, to the fact that Frankie  lied. The
>>> question then becomes... can we believe anything he says. "-)
>>
>> No, it doesn't dumbass. Reiterating Franks message that you seem to have
>> conveniently ignored, your first link states "we found that keeping a
>> gun in the home was strongly and independently associated with an
>> increased risk of homicide (adjusted odds ratio, 2.7; 95 percent
>> confidence interval, 1.6 to 4.4). Virtually all of this risk involved
>> homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance."
>>
>> That study corroborates what Frank has been saying all along.
> 
> Err ... my first link was a count of home homicides with various
> devices showering that firearms were used a bit less often then other
> devices and asking why the greater chooses of death were never
> mentioned as dangerious.

========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========