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From: RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
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Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2025 10:59:39 -0600
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On 3/7/2025 9:18 PM, MarkE wrote:
> On 7/03/2025 1:06 am, RonO wrote:
>> On 3/5/2025 9:24 PM, MarkE wrote:
>>> On 6/03/2025 3:48 am, RonO wrote:
>>>> You need to better cite your sources so that it is easier to look 
>>>> them up.
>>>
>>> Appreciate your engagement and detailed detailed content. Don't 
>>> appreciate your rudeness and oversimplified black-and-white stance, 
>>> but we live with these.
>>
>> Dishonesty is not the best policy.  The good lie for god was made up 
>> to attack religious belief.  It was never meant to be used to support 
>> your religious beliefs.  The ID perps may live by the good lie for god 
>> adage, but it is not anything that you want to be involved with in the 
>> gray areas of reality that you want to believe exist.  Your gray areas 
>> no longer exist.  They haven't existed since the bait and switch 
>> started to go down, and the ID perps gave up and decided to just go 
>> with the obfuscation and denial for denial purposes.  It is just a 
>> fact that the ID creationist scam has just been used as bait for the 
>> last 23 years. What you keep trying to support is the use of this junk 
>> as bait.  You may believe that these types of arguments are leading 
>> somewhere that you want to go, but you already understand that they 
>> never will.  You do realize that your origin of life denial is not 
>> Biblical, but you still persist in going with the gap denial.  Gap 
>> denial is all the ID scam ever was, and the switch scam is just 
>> obfuscation and denial where they do not mention that ID nor 
>> creationism ever existed.  It is just obfuscation and denial meant to 
>> keep the kids as ignorant as possible because they can't tell them why 
>> they are being lied to.  That is their current means to continue their 
>> original Wedge political mission.
>>
>> There is no existing ID "science" that, if they ever do validate any 
>> of it, will support their Wedge mission.  If Behe ever finds his three 
>> neutral mutations that were needed to evolve the flagellum over a 
>> billion years ago the ID perps would lose most of their financial and 
>> political support.  The vast majority of creationists that compose 
>> their "Big Tent" are YEC.  Any valid ID science would just be more 
>> science for them to deny.  This is why Nelson has always told the 
>> rubes that they do not have any ID science at this time, but that they 
>> are just working on producing some.  About the last thing that Nelson 
>> wants to happen would be if Meyer ever was able to demonstrate design 
>> during the Cambrian explosion over half a billion years ago.  Nelson 
>> is YEC and he would have never joined up for the ID perp's Wedge 
>> political mission if the other ID perps had, had any valid ID science.
> 
> All human activity has political dimensions. None of us can claim 
> unbiased objectivity. As I've conceded previously, ID has had political 
> intent, such as the Wedge strategy (I'm not a fan). This is not 
> automatically wrong though - Darwinists do the same thing, e.g. Dawkins 
> and friends promoting atheism.

The Atheists aren't allowed to teach their atheistic claims in the 
public schools either.  The ID scam has always been a religious 
political scam.  They may have been able to fool a few scientists in the 
beginning, but that ended with the start of the bait and switch scam. 
After that everyone left at the Discovery institute was just a perp 
perpetrating the bait and switch, and anyone that still supported the 
scam was just an IDiotic creationist rube.

> 
> Is all ID only "bait and switch", "no science", "gap denial", "IDiots 
> and perps" and "scam, obfuscation and denial"? (Did I miss any?) From my 
> assessment over decades and careful consideration of its leading 
> proponents' writing and speaking, I think definitely not, despite its 
> shortcomings. So I suggest we agree to disagree on this.

Nelson understood that, that was all IDiocy ever was or he would not 
have signed up for the Wedge mission.  If the other ID perps really did 
have any valid science supporting the ID scam Nelson would never have 
joined because it would just have been more science for Nelson to deny.

Do you deny that the switch scam is just obfuscation and denial without 
mentioning creationism nor the ID scam?  The ID perps just had an 
article up on Wells being fondly remembered.  Wells' book (Icons of 
Evolution) was not ID science, but obfuscation and denial of existing 
science.  The book was used by the Ohio IDiots to create the first 
switch scam model lesson plan, and the creationists screwed up by 
including the Wellsian lie of "no moths on tree trunks" and including 
creationist web links in the lesson plan.  That was the extent of their 
switch scam scholarship.

The leading proponents of the ID scam decided 23 years ago to only use 
ID as bait.  They all understood that they never had the ID science to 
teach in the public schools, and decided that using ID as bait was the 
only way forward for their Wedge religious political goals.  All of them 
agreed to do this because not one of them objected, nor resigned from 
the Discovery Institute when they decided to start running the bait and 
switch.  Phillip Johnson was the only ID perp to "retire" a month after 
the bait and switch started to go down.  The previous month Johnson had 
supported teaching ID in Ohio.  The claim is that Phillip Johnson never 
understood what science actually is.  He was likely fooled by the other 
ID perps.  Johnson came back and supported teaching ID in Dover along 
with then Senator Santorum.  The ID perp bait and switch attempt had 
failed and the Dover creationist rubes tried to teach ID anyway.  The ID 
perps were able to run the bait and switch on Santorum and he flip 
flopped on the issue during his reelection campaign and came out against 
teaching ID in the Dover public schools.  His Republican opponents in 
the primary questioned Santorum's religious convictions.  Santorum was 
not reelected.  Phillip Johnson would not flip flop and claimed that ID 
would prevail on the court room steps.  Johnson sat in court every day 
of testimony, and decided that the ID science had never existed.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070609131601/http://sciencereview.berkeley.edu/articles.php?issue=10&article=evolution

QUOTE:
I also don’t think that there is really a theory of intelligent design
at the present time to propose as a comparable alternative to the
Darwinian theory, which is, whatever errors it might contain, a fully
worked out scheme. There is no intelligent design theory that’s
comparable. Working out a positive theory is the job of the scientific
people that we have affiliated with the movement. Some of them are quite
convinced that it’s doable, but that’s for them to prove…No product is
ready for competition in the educational world.
END QUOTE:

QUOTE:
For his part, Johnson agrees: “I think the fat lady has sung for any
efforts to change the approach in the public schools…the courts are just
not going to allow it. They never have. The efforts to change things in
the public schools generate more powerful opposition than accomplish
anything…I don’t think that means the end of the issue at all.” “In some
respects,” he later goes on, “I’m almost relieved, and glad. I think the
issue is properly settled. It’s clear to me now that the public schools
are not going to change their line in my lifetime.
END QUOTE:

Johnson was only fooled until he had his face rubbed in the fact that ID 
had just been a creationist bait and switch scam for the previous 3 
years because there wasn't any ID science worth teaching.

The last IDiots on TO could no longer live with the lies and stopped 
supporting the ID scam when they had their faces rubbed in the fact that 
there wasn't any ID science that they wanted the ID perps to accomplish. 
  The Top Six should have killed your support for the ID scam, but for 
some reason you want to live in denial of what the ID scam has been all 
of these years.

> 
>>
>>>
>>> Would you agree that there are limits to NS as described, which lead 
>>> to an upper limit to functional complexity in living things? How 
>>> these limits might be determined is a separate issue, but the first 
>>> step is establishing this premise.
>>
>> Natural selection works in the real world, as such there are expected 
>> to be limits on what can happen in this universe or in any particular 
>> environment.  Your problem is that all you have are claims about such 
========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========