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From: RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
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Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2025 10:16:18 -0500
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On 3/9/2025 12:56 AM, MarkE wrote:
> On 9/03/2025 3:59 am, RonO wrote:
>> On 3/7/2025 9:18 PM, MarkE wrote:
>>> On 7/03/2025 1:06 am, RonO wrote:
>>>> On 3/5/2025 9:24 PM, MarkE wrote:
>>>>> On 6/03/2025 3:48 am, RonO wrote:
>>>>>> You need to better cite your sources so that it is easier to look 
>>>>>> them up.
>>>>>
>>>>> Appreciate your engagement and detailed detailed content. Don't 
>>>>> appreciate your rudeness and oversimplified black-and-white stance, 
>>>>> but we live with these.
>>>>
>>>> Dishonesty is not the best policy.  The good lie for god was made up 
>>>> to attack religious belief.  It was never meant to be used to 
>>>> support your religious beliefs.  The ID perps may live by the good 
>>>> lie for god adage, but it is not anything that you want to be 
>>>> involved with in the gray areas of reality that you want to believe 
>>>> exist.  Your gray areas no longer exist.  They haven't existed since 
>>>> the bait and switch started to go down, and the ID perps gave up and 
>>>> decided to just go with the obfuscation and denial for denial 
>>>> purposes.  It is just a fact that the ID creationist scam has just 
>>>> been used as bait for the last 23 years. What you keep trying to 
>>>> support is the use of this junk as bait.  You may believe that these 
>>>> types of arguments are leading somewhere that you want to go, but 
>>>> you already understand that they never will.  You do realize that 
>>>> your origin of life denial is not Biblical, but you still persist in 
>>>> going with the gap denial. Gap denial is all the ID scam ever was, 
>>>> and the switch scam is just obfuscation and denial where they do not 
>>>> mention that ID nor creationism ever existed.  It is just 
>>>> obfuscation and denial meant to keep the kids as ignorant as 
>>>> possible because they can't tell them why they are being lied to.  
>>>> That is their current means to continue their original Wedge 
>>>> political mission.
>>>>
>>>> There is no existing ID "science" that, if they ever do validate any 
>>>> of it, will support their Wedge mission.  If Behe ever finds his 
>>>> three neutral mutations that were needed to evolve the flagellum 
>>>> over a billion years ago the ID perps would lose most of their 
>>>> financial and political support.  The vast majority of creationists 
>>>> that compose their "Big Tent" are YEC.  Any valid ID science would 
>>>> just be more science for them to deny.  This is why Nelson has 
>>>> always told the rubes that they do not have any ID science at this 
>>>> time, but that they are just working on producing some.  About the 
>>>> last thing that Nelson wants to happen would be if Meyer ever was 
>>>> able to demonstrate design during the Cambrian explosion over half a 
>>>> billion years ago. Nelson is YEC and he would have never joined up 
>>>> for the ID perp's Wedge political mission if the other ID perps had, 
>>>> had any valid ID science.
>>>
>>> All human activity has political dimensions. None of us can claim 
>>> unbiased objectivity. As I've conceded previously, ID has had 
>>> political intent, such as the Wedge strategy (I'm not a fan). This is 
>>> not automatically wrong though - Darwinists do the same thing, e.g. 
>>> Dawkins and friends promoting atheism.
>>
>> The Atheists aren't allowed to teach their atheistic claims in the 
>> public schools either.  The ID scam has always been a religious 
>> political scam.  They may have been able to fool a few scientists in 
>> the beginning, but that ended with the start of the bait and switch 
>> scam. After that everyone left at the Discovery institute was just a 
>> perp perpetrating the bait and switch, and anyone that still supported 
>> the scam was just an IDiotic creationist rube.
>>
>>>
>>> Is all ID only "bait and switch", "no science", "gap denial", "IDiots 
>>> and perps" and "scam, obfuscation and denial"? (Did I miss any?) From 
>>> my assessment over decades and careful consideration of its leading 
>>> proponents' writing and speaking, I think definitely not, despite its 
>>> shortcomings. So I suggest we agree to disagree on this.
>>
>> Nelson understood that, that was all IDiocy ever was or he would not 
>> have signed up for the Wedge mission.  If the other ID perps really 
>> did have any valid science supporting the ID scam Nelson would never 
>> have joined because it would just have been more science for Nelson to 
>> deny.
>>
>> Do you deny that the switch scam is just obfuscation and denial 
>> without mentioning creationism nor the ID scam?  The ID perps just had 
>> an article up on Wells being fondly remembered.  Wells' book (Icons of 
>> Evolution) was not ID science, but obfuscation and denial of existing 
>> science.  The book was used by the Ohio IDiots to create the first 
>> switch scam model lesson plan, and the creationists screwed up by 
>> including the Wellsian lie of "no moths on tree trunks" and including 
>> creationist web links in the lesson plan.  That was the extent of 
>> their switch scam scholarship.
>>
>> The leading proponents of the ID scam decided 23 years ago to only use 
>> ID as bait.  They all understood that they never had the ID science to 
>> teach in the public schools, and decided that using ID as bait was the 
>> only way forward for their Wedge religious political goals.  All of 
>> them agreed to do this because not one of them objected, nor resigned 
>> from the Discovery Institute when they decided to start running the 
>> bait and switch.  Phillip Johnson was the only ID perp to "retire" a 
>> month after the bait and switch started to go down.  The previous 
>> month Johnson had supported teaching ID in Ohio.  The claim is that 
>> Phillip Johnson never understood what science actually is.  He was 
>> likely fooled by the other ID perps.  Johnson came back and supported 
>> teaching ID in Dover along with then Senator Santorum.  The ID perp 
>> bait and switch attempt had failed and the Dover creationist rubes 
>> tried to teach ID anyway.  The ID perps were able to run the bait and 
>> switch on Santorum and he flip flopped on the issue during his 
>> reelection campaign and came out against teaching ID in the Dover 
>> public schools.  His Republican opponents in the primary questioned 
>> Santorum's religious convictions.  Santorum was not reelected.  
>> Phillip Johnson would not flip flop and claimed that ID would prevail 
>> on the court room steps.  Johnson sat in court every day of testimony, 
>> and decided that the ID science had never existed.
>>
>> http://web.archive.org/web/20070609131601/http:// 
>> sciencereview.berkeley.edu/articles.php?issue=10&article=evolution
>>
>> QUOTE:
>> I also don’t think that there is really a theory of intelligent design
>> at the present time to propose as a comparable alternative to the
>> Darwinian theory, which is, whatever errors it might contain, a fully
>> worked out scheme. There is no intelligent design theory that’s
>> comparable. Working out a positive theory is the job of the scientific
>> people that we have affiliated with the movement. Some of them are quite
>> convinced that it’s doable, but that’s for them to prove…No product is
>> ready for competition in the educational world.
>> END QUOTE:
>>
>> QUOTE:
>> For his part, Johnson agrees: “I think the fat lady has sung for any
>> efforts to change the approach in the public schools…the courts are just
>> not going to allow it. They never have. The efforts to change things in
>> the public schools generate more powerful opposition than accomplish
>> anything…I don’t think that means the end of the issue at all.” “In some
>> respects,” he later goes on, “I’m almost relieved, and glad. I think the
>> issue is properly settled. It’s clear to me now that the public schools
>> are not going to change their line in my lifetime.
>> END QUOTE:
>>
>> Johnson was only fooled until he had his face rubbed in the fact that 
>> ID had just been a creationist bait and switch scam for the previous 3 
>> years because there wasn't any ID science worth teaching.
>>
>> The last IDiots on TO could no longer live with the lies and stopped 
>> supporting the ID scam when they had their faces rubbed in the fact 
>> that there wasn't any ID science that they wanted the ID perps to 
>> accomplish.   The Top Six should have killed your support for the ID 
>> scam, but for some reason you want to live in denial of what the ID 
>> scam has been all of these years.
>>
>>>
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