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From: RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Observe_the_trend=2E_It=E2=80=99s_happening=2E_Give?=
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Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2025 12:15:46 -0500
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On 3/10/2025 6:57 AM, MarkE wrote:
> On 10/03/2025 2:16 am, RonO wrote:
>> On 3/9/2025 12:56 AM, MarkE wrote:
>>> On 9/03/2025 3:59 am, RonO wrote:
>>>> On 3/7/2025 9:18 PM, MarkE wrote:
>>>>> On 7/03/2025 1:06 am, RonO wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/5/2025 9:24 PM, MarkE wrote:
>>>>>>> On 6/03/2025 3:48 am, RonO wrote:
>>>>>>>> You need to better cite your sources so that it is easier to 
>>>>>>>> look them up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Appreciate your engagement and detailed detailed content. Don't 
>>>>>>> appreciate your rudeness and oversimplified black-and-white 
>>>>>>> stance, but we live with these.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dishonesty is not the best policy.  The good lie for god was made 
>>>>>> up to attack religious belief.  It was never meant to be used to 
>>>>>> support your religious beliefs.  The ID perps may live by the good 
>>>>>> lie for god adage, but it is not anything that you want to be 
>>>>>> involved with in the gray areas of reality that you want to 
>>>>>> believe exist.  Your gray areas no longer exist.  They haven't 
>>>>>> existed since the bait and switch started to go down, and the ID 
>>>>>> perps gave up and decided to just go with the obfuscation and 
>>>>>> denial for denial purposes.  It is just a fact that the ID 
>>>>>> creationist scam has just been used as bait for the last 23 years. 
>>>>>> What you keep trying to support is the use of this junk as bait.  
>>>>>> You may believe that these types of arguments are leading 
>>>>>> somewhere that you want to go, but you already understand that 
>>>>>> they never will.  You do realize that your origin of life denial 
>>>>>> is not Biblical, but you still persist in going with the gap 
>>>>>> denial. Gap denial is all the ID scam ever was, and the switch 
>>>>>> scam is just obfuscation and denial where they do not mention that 
>>>>>> ID nor creationism ever existed.  It is just obfuscation and 
>>>>>> denial meant to keep the kids as ignorant as possible because they 
>>>>>> can't tell them why they are being lied to. That is their current 
>>>>>> means to continue their original Wedge political mission.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is no existing ID "science" that, if they ever do validate 
>>>>>> any of it, will support their Wedge mission.  If Behe ever finds 
>>>>>> his three neutral mutations that were needed to evolve the 
>>>>>> flagellum over a billion years ago the ID perps would lose most of 
>>>>>> their financial and political support.  The vast majority of 
>>>>>> creationists that compose their "Big Tent" are YEC.  Any valid ID 
>>>>>> science would just be more science for them to deny.  This is why 
>>>>>> Nelson has always told the rubes that they do not have any ID 
>>>>>> science at this time, but that they are just working on producing 
>>>>>> some.  About the last thing that Nelson wants to happen would be 
>>>>>> if Meyer ever was able to demonstrate design during the Cambrian 
>>>>>> explosion over half a billion years ago. Nelson is YEC and he 
>>>>>> would have never joined up for the ID perp's Wedge political 
>>>>>> mission if the other ID perps had, had any valid ID science.
>>>>>
>>>>> All human activity has political dimensions. None of us can claim 
>>>>> unbiased objectivity. As I've conceded previously, ID has had 
>>>>> political intent, such as the Wedge strategy (I'm not a fan). This 
>>>>> is not automatically wrong though - Darwinists do the same thing, 
>>>>> e.g. Dawkins and friends promoting atheism.
>>>>
>>>> The Atheists aren't allowed to teach their atheistic claims in the 
>>>> public schools either.  The ID scam has always been a religious 
>>>> political scam.  They may have been able to fool a few scientists in 
>>>> the beginning, but that ended with the start of the bait and switch 
>>>> scam. After that everyone left at the Discovery institute was just a 
>>>> perp perpetrating the bait and switch, and anyone that still 
>>>> supported the scam was just an IDiotic creationist rube.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Is all ID only "bait and switch", "no science", "gap denial", 
>>>>> "IDiots and perps" and "scam, obfuscation and denial"? (Did I miss 
>>>>> any?) From my assessment over decades and careful consideration of 
>>>>> its leading proponents' writing and speaking, I think definitely 
>>>>> not, despite its shortcomings. So I suggest we agree to disagree on 
>>>>> this.
>>>>
>>>> Nelson understood that, that was all IDiocy ever was or he would not 
>>>> have signed up for the Wedge mission.  If the other ID perps really 
>>>> did have any valid science supporting the ID scam Nelson would never 
>>>> have joined because it would just have been more science for Nelson 
>>>> to deny.
>>>>
>>>> Do you deny that the switch scam is just obfuscation and denial 
>>>> without mentioning creationism nor the ID scam?  The ID perps just 
>>>> had an article up on Wells being fondly remembered.  Wells' book 
>>>> (Icons of Evolution) was not ID science, but obfuscation and denial 
>>>> of existing science.  The book was used by the Ohio IDiots to create 
>>>> the first switch scam model lesson plan, and the creationists 
>>>> screwed up by including the Wellsian lie of "no moths on tree 
>>>> trunks" and including creationist web links in the lesson plan.  
>>>> That was the extent of their switch scam scholarship.
>>>>
>>>> The leading proponents of the ID scam decided 23 years ago to only 
>>>> use ID as bait.  They all understood that they never had the ID 
>>>> science to teach in the public schools, and decided that using ID as 
>>>> bait was the only way forward for their Wedge religious political 
>>>> goals.  All of them agreed to do this because not one of them 
>>>> objected, nor resigned from the Discovery Institute when they 
>>>> decided to start running the bait and switch.  Phillip Johnson was 
>>>> the only ID perp to "retire" a month after the bait and switch 
>>>> started to go down.  The previous month Johnson had supported 
>>>> teaching ID in Ohio. The claim is that Phillip Johnson never 
>>>> understood what science actually is.  He was likely fooled by the 
>>>> other ID perps.  Johnson came back and supported teaching ID in 
>>>> Dover along with then Senator Santorum.  The ID perp bait and switch 
>>>> attempt had failed and the Dover creationist rubes tried to teach ID 
>>>> anyway.  The ID perps were able to run the bait and switch on 
>>>> Santorum and he flip flopped on the issue during his reelection 
>>>> campaign and came out against teaching ID in the Dover public 
>>>> schools.  His Republican opponents in the primary questioned 
>>>> Santorum's religious convictions.  Santorum was not reelected. 
>>>> Phillip Johnson would not flip flop and claimed that ID would 
>>>> prevail on the court room steps.  Johnson sat in court every day of 
>>>> testimony, and decided that the ID science had never existed.
>>>>
>>>> http://web.archive.org/web/20070609131601/http:// 
>>>> sciencereview.berkeley.edu/articles.php?issue=10&article=evolution
>>>>
>>>> QUOTE:
>>>> I also don’t think that there is really a theory of intelligent design
>>>> at the present time to propose as a comparable alternative to the
>>>> Darwinian theory, which is, whatever errors it might contain, a fully
>>>> worked out scheme. There is no intelligent design theory that’s
>>>> comparable. Working out a positive theory is the job of the scientific
>>>> people that we have affiliated with the movement. Some of them are 
>>>> quite
>>>> convinced that it’s doable, but that’s for them to prove…No product is
>>>> ready for competition in the educational world.
>>>> END QUOTE:
>>>>
>>>> QUOTE:
>>>> For his part, Johnson agrees: “I think the fat lady has sung for any
>>>> efforts to change the approach in the public schools…the courts are 
>>>> just
>>>> not going to allow it. They never have. The efforts to change things in
>>>> the public schools generate more powerful opposition than accomplish
>>>> anything…I don’t think that means the end of the issue at all.” “In 
>>>> some
>>>> respects,” he later goes on, “I’m almost relieved, and glad. I think 
>>>> the
>>>> issue is properly settled. It’s clear to me now that the public schools
>>>> are not going to change their line in my lifetime.
>>>> END QUOTE:
>>>>
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