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Path: ...!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> Newsgroups: comp.theory Subject: Re: Every sufficiently competent C programmer knows --- Very Stupid Mistake and Liars Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2025 23:17:29 -0500 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 71 Message-ID: <vqtm8p$32on1$2@dont-email.me> References: <vqntaq$1jut5$1@dont-email.me> <vqp388$1tvqa$1@dont-email.me> <vqpdv9$202b2$2@dont-email.me> <vqperb$20c9k$2@dont-email.me> <E6mcnWv3nMa66036nZ2dnZfqnPWdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk> <vqqnk5$28jtr$1@dont-email.me> <vqqonm$28lh2$1@dont-email.me> <vqqq09$28kp8$1@dont-email.me> <vqqq7s$29buv$2@dont-email.me> <vqqrin$28lh2$4@dont-email.me> <vqs0m8$2k732$1@dont-email.me> <vqs6va$2lh78$1@dont-email.me> <bdd8da0dfff4e66fced0efec795b6691f64fa8fd@i2pn2.org> <vqt8ro$2spcd$3@dont-email.me> <bc83a0dd5b88baf1a293050deb5f1324da191d05@i2pn2.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2025 05:17:30 +0100 (CET) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="c857a159987cd29a4265e3ac68f94ca5"; logging-data="3236577"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19t54H9n4kHHtRL3FazpFef" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:NPXkkE2xFEG7wbkinYyFNakShQU= In-Reply-To: <bc83a0dd5b88baf1a293050deb5f1324da191d05@i2pn2.org> X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Antivirus: Norton (VPS 250312-2, 3/12/2025), Outbound message Content-Language: en-US Bytes: 4262 On 3/12/2025 10:55 PM, Richard Damon wrote: > On 3/12/25 8:28 PM, olcott wrote: >> On 3/12/2025 5:46 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>> On 3/12/25 10:50 AM, olcott wrote: >>>> On 3/12/2025 8:03 AM, André G. Isaak wrote: >>>>> On 2025-03-11 20:29, Richard Heathfield wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Look up "infinite". You keep using that word. I do not think it >>>>>> means what you think it means. >>>>> >>>>> If you continue to engage with Olcott, you will discover that a >>>>> great many words don't mean what he thinks they mean. >>>>> >>>>> André >>>>> >>>> >>>> Incomplete[0] (base meaning) >>>> Not having all the necessary or appropriate parts. >>>> >>>> Provable[0] (base meaning) >>>> Can be shown to be definitely true by some means. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> Right, and the appropriate part for logic that it is missing is the >>> proofs of some of the statements. >>> >>> Proofs, to SHOW something, must be finite, as we can not see >>> something that is infinite, as we are finite. >>> >> >> So then we know that G <is> TRUE because meta-math proves this. >> If we are stupid enough to define a system that does not know >> this then we are stupid. >> >> > > Yes, we know that G is true, as from the additional information provide > in the meta-system we can reduce the infinite sequence that can be built > in the base system to a finite proof. > > Note, PROOF belong to a system, and if they try to use something not > known to be true in the system, they fail to be a proof, as they don't > SHOW the needed result. > > Note, the "System" can't contain all of the Meta-System, as one > important added part of the meta-system, as a set of axioms, was an > enumeration of all axioms in the base system. If we try to put that > enumeration into the base system, it becomes self-referential and we > have an infinite set of axioms, something not allowed in normal formal > logic. > > It is possible to do in a meta-system, as the system has a finite > axiomization, so we just need to develope a numbering of that list of > axioms. > > This seems to be part of your problem of not understanding why meta- > systems can exist and not be part of the original system, but does > describe it, > > The only reason why the meta-system and the system cannot be the same system is that semantically incorrect expressions are not rejected as not truth bearers in the system. -- Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer