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From: dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Every sufficiently competent C programmer knows --- Paraphrase of
 Sipser's agreement
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2025 18:35:28 -0400
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On 3/15/2025 5:27 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 3/15/2025 5:12 AM, Mikko wrote:
>> On 2025-03-14 14:39:30 +0000, olcott said:
>>
>>> On 3/14/2025 4:03 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>> On 2025-03-13 20:56:22 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/13/2025 4:22 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>> On 2025-03-13 00:36:04 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> void DDD()
>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>    HHH(DDD);
>>>>>>>    return;
>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> int DD()
>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>    int Halt_Status = HHH(DD);
>>>>>>>    if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>>>      HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>>>    return Halt_Status;
>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When HHH correctly emulates N steps of the
>>>>>>> above functions none of them can possibly reach
>>>>>>> their own "return" instruction and terminate normally.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nevertheless, assuming HHH is a decider, Infinite_Loop and 
>>>>>> Infinite_Recursion
>>>>>> specify a non-terminating behaviour, DDD specifies a terminating 
>>>>>> behaviour
>>>>>
>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>>>> [00002173] 8bec       mov  ebp,esp  ; housekeeping
>>>>> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add  esp,+04
>>>>> [00002182] 5d         pop  ebp
>>>>> [00002183] c3         ret
>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>>>>>
>>>>> What is the sequence of machine language
>>>>> instructions of DDD emulated by HHH such that DDD
>>>>> reaches its machine address 00002183?
>>>>
>>>> Irrelevant off-topic distraction.
>>>
>>> Proving that you don't have a clue that Rice's Theorem
>>> is anchored in the behavior that its finite string input
>>> specifies. The depth of your knowledge is memorizing
>>> quotes from textbooks.
>>
>> Another irrelevant off-topic distraction, this time involving
>> a false claim.
>>
>> One can be a competent C programmer without knowing anyting about Rice's
>> Theorem.
>>
> 
> YES.
> 
>> Rice's Theorem is about semantic properties in general, not just 
>> behaviours.
>> The unsolvability of the halting problem is just a special case.
>>
> 
> A property about Turing machines can be represented as the language of 
> all Turing machines, encoded as strings, that satisfy that property.
> http://kilby.stanford.edu/~rvg/154/handouts/Rice.html
> 
> Does THE INPUT TO simulating termination analyzer
> HHH encode a C function that reaches its "return"
> instruction [WHEN SIMULATED BY HHH] (The definition
> of simulating termination analyzer) ???
> 
> <MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 10/13/2022>
>      If simulating halt decider H correctly simulates its input D
>      until H correctly determines that its simulated D would never
>      stop running unless aborted then
> 
>      H can abort its simulation of D and correctly report that D
>      specifies a non-halting sequence of configurations.
> </MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 10/13/2022>
> 

But he didn't agree to what you think he did:


On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 2:41:27 PM UTC-5, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
 > Fritz Feldhase <franz.fri...@gmail.com> writes:
 >
 > > On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 3:56:52 AM UTC+1, olcott wrote:
 > >> On 3/5/2023 8:33 PM, Fritz Feldhase wrote:
 > >> > On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 3:30:38 AM UTC+1, olcott wrote:
 > >> > >
 > >> > > I needed Sipser for people [bla]
 > >> > >
 > >> > Does Sipser support your view/claim that you have refuted the 
halting theorem?
 > >> >
 > >> > Does he write/teach that the halting theorem is invalid?
 > >> >
 > >> > Tell us, oh genius!
 > >> >
 > >> Professor Sipser only agreed that [...]
 > >
 > > So the answer is no. Noted.
 > >
 > >> Because he has >250 students he did not have time to examine anything
 > >> else. [...]
 > >
 > > Oh, a CS professor does not have the time to check a refutation of the
 > > halting theorem. *lol*
 > I exchanged emails with him about this. He does not agree with anything
 > substantive that PO has written. I won't quote him, as I don't have
 > permission, but he was, let's say... forthright, in his reply to me.
 >


On 8/23/2024 5:07 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
 > joes <noreply@example.org> writes:
 >
 >> Am Wed, 21 Aug 2024 20:55:52 -0500 schrieb olcott:
 >
 >>> Professor Sipser clearly agreed that an H that does a finite simulation
 >>> of D is to predict the behavior of an unlimited simulation of D.
 >>
 >> If the simulator *itself* would not abort. The H called by D is,
 >> by construction, the same and *does* abort.
 >
 > We don't really know what context Sipser was given.  I got in touch at
 > the time so do I know he had enough context to know that PO's ideas were
 > "wacky" and that had agreed to what he considered a "minor remark".
 >
 > Since PO considers his words finely crafted and key to his so-called
 > work I think it's clear that Sipser did not take the "minor remark" he
 > agreed to to mean what PO takes it to mean!  My own take if that he
 > (Sipser) read it as a general remark about how to determine some cases,
 > i.e. that D names an input that H can partially simulate to determine
 > it's halting or otherwise.  We all know or could construct some such
 > cases.
 >
 > I suspect he was tricked because PO used H and D as the names without
 > making it clear that D was constructed from H in the usual way (Sipser
 > uses H and D in at least one of his proofs).  Of course, he is clued in
 > enough know that, if D is indeed constructed from H like that, the
 > "minor remark" becomes true by being a hypothetical: if the moon is made
 > of cheese, the Martians can look forward to a fine fondue.  But,
 > personally, I think the professor is more straight talking than that,
 > and he simply took as a method that can work for some inputs.  That's
 > the only way is could be seen as a "minor remark" with being accused of
 > being disingenuous.


On 8/23/2024 9:10 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
 > So that PO will have no cause to quote me as supporting his case:  what
 > Sipser understood he was agreeing to was NOT what PO interprets it as
 > meaning.  Sipser would not agree that the conclusion applies in PO's
 > HHH(DDD) scenario, where DDD halts.