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From: RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Evolutionary creationism
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2025 08:42:49 -0500
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On 3/15/2025 11:06 PM, Martin Harran wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Mar 2025 07:02:16 -0500, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> On 3/14/2025 5:50 PM, Martin Harran wrote:
>>> On Fri, 14 Mar 2025 14:28:44 -0500, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/14/2025 12:06 PM, Martin Harran wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 14 Mar 2025 08:04:06 -0500, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/14/2025 3:23 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 13 Mar 2025 10:02:21 -0500, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 3/13/2025 8:23 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 12 Mar 2025 11:43:35 -0500, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/12/2025 8:25 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 11 Mar 2025 13:06:43 -0500, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/11/2025 12:21 PM, Martin Harran wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 11 Mar 2025 09:21:24 -0500, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/11/2025 5:06 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 10 Mar 2025 17:20:56 -0500, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They are still not abiding by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Saint Augustine's admonishment about not using the Bible to make claims
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about what we can determine for ourselves about nature, so my guess is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that their efforts can still fail to represent nature accurately
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> depending on how consistent with the Bible that they want to be.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They are NOT in any way contradicting Saint Augustine's admonishment,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they are following it perfectly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you think differently then like MarkE, you haven't properly grasped
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the meaning of what St Augustine meant.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They are trying to force biological evolution into conforming with their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Biblical interpretation.  As such what are they missing about biological
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evolution?  Some of them are denying that natural mechanisms were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> involved in some of that evolution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Please give an example of that.
>>>>>>>>>>> ?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You SNIPed it out.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There is nothing in what I snipped that shows anyone denying that
>>>>>>>>>>> natural mechanisms were involved in evolution. On the contrary, as
>>>>>>>>>>> quoted by you from their website, they define one of their core values
>>>>>>>>>>> as affirming the established findings of modern science. Are you
>>>>>>>>>>> calling them liars?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That obviously is not true.  Did you actually read what you snipped out?
>>>>>>>>>>       What were their other core values?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Here is exactly what you posted from their site earlier::
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ====================================
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> QUOTE:
>>>>>>>>> Evolutionary Creation (EC) is a Christian position on origins. It
>>>>>>>>> takes
>>>>>>>>> the Bible seriously as the inspired and authoritative word of God, and
>>>>>>>>> it takes science seriously as a way of understanding the world God has
>>>>>>>>> made. EC includes two basic ideas. First, that God created all things,
>>>>>>>>> including human beings in his own image. Second, that evolution is the
>>>>>>>>> best scientific explanation we currently have for the diversity and
>>>>>>>>> similarities of all life on Earth.
>>>>>>>>> END QUOTE:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> QUOTE:
>>>>>>>>> The Identity of BioLogos
>>>>>>>>> Core Values
>>>>>>>>> Christ-centered Faith - We embrace the historical Christian faith,
>>>>>>>>> upholding the authority and inspiration of the Bible.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Rigorous Science - We affirm the established findings of modern
>>>>>>>>> science,
>>>>>>>>> celebrating the wonders of God's creation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Gracious Dialogue - We strive for humble and thoughtful dialogue with
>>>>>>>>> those who hold other views, speaking the truth in love.
>>>>>>>>> END QUOTE:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ===============================================
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Where in that are they are denying that natural mechanisms were
>>>>>>>>> involved in some of that evolution?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They are like Behe and claiming that their god is needed to do a
>>>>>>>> specific thing that they claim the Bible tells them so.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What do you not get?  The reasoning is no different from Behe claiming
>>>>>>>> that some god is needed to create the flagellum.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> They obviously have other feelings
>>>>>>>>>> about what are not "established findings of modern science."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So what does it matter what they think about things outside of
>>>>>>>>> science, how is that contradicting science?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They are claiming that their understanding of science can be made to
>>>>>>>> conform to their literal interpretations of the Bible.  It is the same
>>>>>>>> claim that the ID perps make except they agree that biological evolution
>>>>>>>> is a fact of nature.  Some of them still think like Behe.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Not only
>>>>>>>>>> that, but as I indicated there are somethings about evolution that have
>>>>>>>>>> not been established because they claim to be tweekers like Behe, and
>>>>>>>>>> their god has been tweeking things in order to make humans into his own
>>>>>>>>>> image.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm still waiting for an example of those tweekers. And why do you
>>>>>>>>> keep bringing Behe into it? He has nothing to do with Biologos or they
>>>>>>>>> with him. They actually have a lengthy article about his "Darwin's
>>>>>>>>> Black Box" book where they go through his arguments one by one and
>>>>>>>>> show how they don't stand up.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How do you expect god to have made man in his own image without
>>>>>>>> tweeking?  They likely even differ in what they think image means.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://biologos.org/common-questions/how-can-evolution-account-for-the-complexity-of-life-on-earth-today
>>>>>>>>>
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