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From: RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Evolutionary creationism
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2025 12:42:09 -0500
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On 3/17/2025 8:31 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Mar 2025 08:42:49 -0500, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> On 3/15/2025 11:06 PM, Martin Harran wrote:
>>> On Sat, 15 Mar 2025 07:02:16 -0500, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/14/2025 5:50 PM, Martin Harran wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 14 Mar 2025 14:28:44 -0500, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/14/2025 12:06 PM, Martin Harran wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 14 Mar 2025 08:04:06 -0500, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 3/14/2025 3:23 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 13 Mar 2025 10:02:21 -0500, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/13/2025 8:23 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 12 Mar 2025 11:43:35 -0500, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/12/2025 8:25 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 11 Mar 2025 13:06:43 -0500, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/11/2025 12:21 PM, Martin Harran wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 11 Mar 2025 09:21:24 -0500, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/11/2025 5:06 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 10 Mar 2025 17:20:56 -0500, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They are still not abiding by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Saint Augustine's admonishment about not using the Bible to make claims
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about what we can determine for ourselves about nature, so my guess is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that their efforts can still fail to represent nature accurately
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> depending on how consistent with the Bible that they want to be.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They are NOT in any way contradicting Saint Augustine's admonishment,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they are following it perfectly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you think differently then like MarkE, you haven't properly grasped
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the meaning of what St Augustine meant.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They are trying to force biological evolution into conforming with their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Biblical interpretation.  As such what are they missing about biological
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evolution?  Some of them are denying that natural mechanisms were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> involved in some of that evolution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Please give an example of that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You SNIPed it out.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is nothing in what I snipped that shows anyone denying that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> natural mechanisms were involved in evolution. On the contrary, as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> quoted by you from their website, they define one of their core values
>>>>>>>>>>>>> as affirming the established findings of modern science. Are you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> calling them liars?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That obviously is not true.  Did you actually read what you snipped out?
>>>>>>>>>>>>        What were their other core values?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Here is exactly what you posted from their site earlier::
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ====================================
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> QUOTE:
>>>>>>>>>>> Evolutionary Creation (EC) is a Christian position on origins. It
>>>>>>>>>>> takes
>>>>>>>>>>> the Bible seriously as the inspired and authoritative word of God, and
>>>>>>>>>>> it takes science seriously as a way of understanding the world God has
>>>>>>>>>>> made. EC includes two basic ideas. First, that God created all things,
>>>>>>>>>>> including human beings in his own image. Second, that evolution is the
>>>>>>>>>>> best scientific explanation we currently have for the diversity and
>>>>>>>>>>> similarities of all life on Earth.
>>>>>>>>>>> END QUOTE:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> QUOTE:
>>>>>>>>>>> The Identity of BioLogos
>>>>>>>>>>> Core Values
>>>>>>>>>>> Christ-centered Faith - We embrace the historical Christian faith,
>>>>>>>>>>> upholding the authority and inspiration of the Bible.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Rigorous Science - We affirm the established findings of modern
>>>>>>>>>>> science,
>>>>>>>>>>> celebrating the wonders of God's creation.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Gracious Dialogue - We strive for humble and thoughtful dialogue with
>>>>>>>>>>> those who hold other views, speaking the truth in love.
>>>>>>>>>>> END QUOTE:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ===============================================
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Where in that are they are denying that natural mechanisms were
>>>>>>>>>>> involved in some of that evolution?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> They are like Behe and claiming that their god is needed to do a
>>>>>>>>>> specific thing that they claim the Bible tells them so.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What do you not get?  The reasoning is no different from Behe claiming
>>>>>>>>>> that some god is needed to create the flagellum.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> They obviously have other feelings
>>>>>>>>>>>> about what are not "established findings of modern science."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So what does it matter what they think about things outside of
>>>>>>>>>>> science, how is that contradicting science?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> They are claiming that their understanding of science can be made to
>>>>>>>>>> conform to their literal interpretations of the Bible.  It is the same
>>>>>>>>>> claim that the ID perps make except they agree that biological evolution
>>>>>>>>>> is a fact of nature.  Some of them still think like Behe.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Not only
>>>>>>>>>>>> that, but as I indicated there are somethings about evolution that have
>>>>>>>>>>>> not been established because they claim to be tweekers like Behe, and
>>>>>>>>>>>> their god has been tweeking things in order to make humans into his own
>>>>>>>>>>>> image.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm still waiting for an example of those tweekers. And why do you
>>>>>>>>>>> keep bringing Behe into it? He has nothing to do with Biologos or they
>>>>>>>>>>> with him. They actually have a lengthy article about his "Darwin's
>>>>>>>>>>> Black Box" book where they go through his arguments one by one and
>>>>>>>>>>> show how they don't stand up.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How do you expect god to have made man in his own image without
>>>>>>>>>> tweeking?  They likely even differ in what they think image means.
>>>>>>>>>>
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