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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic,sci.lang
Subject: Re: Why Tarski is wrong --- Montague, Davidson and Knowledge Ontology
 providing situational context.
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2025 16:50:49 -0500
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On 3/18/2025 10:04 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 3/18/25 9:36 AM, olcott wrote:
>> On 3/18/2025 8:14 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>> On 2025-03-17 15:40:22 +0000, olcott said:
>>>
>>>> On 3/16/2025 9:51 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 3/16/25 9:50 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/16/2025 5:50 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/16/25 11:12 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/16/2025 7:36 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Am Sat, 15 Mar 2025 20:43:11 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We can define a correct True(X) predicate that always succeeds 
>>>>>>>>>> except
>>>>>>>>>> for unknowns and untruths, Tarski WAS WRONG !!!
>>>>>>>>> That does not disprove Tarski.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> He said that this is impossible and no
>>>>>>>> counter-examples exists that shows that I am wrong.
>>>>>>>> True(GC) == FALSE Cannot be proven true AKA unknown
>>>>>>>> True(LP) == FALSE Not a truth-bearer
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But if x is what you are saying is
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A True(X) predicate can be defined and Tarski never
>>>>>> showed that it cannot.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sure he did. Using a mathematical system like Godel, we can 
>>>>> construct a statement x, which is only true it is the case that 
>>>>> True(x) is false, but this interperetation can only be seen in the 
>>>>> metalanguage created from the language in the proof, similar to 
>>>>> Godel meta that generates the proof testing relationship that shows 
>>>>> that G can only be true if it can not be proven as the existance of 
>>>>> a number to make it false, becomes a proof that the statement is 
>>>>> true and thus creates a contradiction in the system.
>>>>>
>>>>> That you can't understand that, or get confused by what is in the 
>>>>> language, which your True predicate can look at, and in the 
>>>>> metalanguage, which it can not, but still you make bold statements 
>>>>> that you can not prove, and have been pointed out to be wrong, just 
>>>>> shows how stupid you are.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> True(X) only returns TRUE when a a sequence of truth
>>>>>> preserving operations can derive X from the set of basic
>>>>>> facts and returns false otherwise.
>>>>>
>>>>> Right, but needs to do so even if the path to x is infinite in length.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This never fails on the entire set of human general
>>>>>> knowledge that can be expressed using language.
>>>>>
>>>>> But that isn't a logic system, so you are just proving your stupidity.
>>>>>
>>>>> Note, "The Entire set of Human General Knowledge" does not contain 
>>>>> the contents of Meta-systems like Tarski uses, as there are an 
>>>>> infinite number of them possible, and thus to even try to express 
>>>>> them all requires an infinite number of axioms, and thus your 
>>>>> system fails to meet the requirements. Once you don't have the 
>>>>> meta- systems, Tarski proof can create a metasystem, that you 
>>>>> system doesn't know about, which creates the problem statement.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is not fooled by pathological self-reference or
>>>>>> self-contradiction.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course it is, because it can't detect all forms of such references.
>>>>>
>>>>> And, even if it does detect it, what answer does True(x) produce 
>>>>> when we have designed (via a metalanguage) that the statement x in 
>>>>> the language will be true if and only if !True(x), which he showed 
>>>>> can be done in ANY system with sufficient power, which your 
>>>>> universal system must have.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, you are just showing how little you understand what you are 
>>>>> talking about.
>>>>
>>>> We need no metalanguage. A single formalized natural
>>>> language can express its own semantics as connections
>>>> between expressions of this same language.
>>>
>>> A nice formal language has the symbols and syntax of the first order 
>>> logic
>>> with equivalence and the following additional symbols:
>>
>> I am not talking about a trivially simple formal
>> language. I am talking about very significant
>> extensions to something like Montague grammar.
>>
>> The language must be expressive enough to fully
>> encode any and all details of each element of the
>> entire body of human general knowledge that can
>> be expressed using language. Davidson semantics
>> provides another encoding.
>>
> 
> But "encoding" knowledge, isn't a logic system.
Unless you bother to pay attention to the details
of how this of encoded.

> 
> Part of the problem is that most of what we call "Human Knowledge" isn't 
> logically defined truth, but is just "Emperical Knowledge", for which we 

The set of human knowledge that can be expressed
in language provides the means to compute True(X).

The actual smell of a rose cannot be expressed using
language.

> know it isn't totally accurate (as all measurements have error) or is 
> actually just an approximation for what reality actually is.
> 
>> To address the objection to these forms of encoding
>> that they ignore the important source of meaning
>> of linguistics pragmatics context, what I am proposing
>> also includes a situation specific knowledge ontology
>> that directly encode the full context of the specific
>> situation.
> 
> And a listing of "facts" (which mostly are not facts) isn't a logic system.
> 
> Sorry, but you are just demonstrating that you don't actually understand 
> what you are talking about.
> 

You simply did not bother to pay any attention to any details.
We simply formalize the entire body of human general knowledge
as one gigantic tree of knowledge semantic tautology using
Montague Grammar and knowledge ontology inheritance hierarchy.

If those are all words that you do not understand that does
not mean that I am wrong.


-- 
Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer