Path: ...!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: DDD specifies recursive emulation to HHH and halting to HHH1
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2025 14:02:12 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 119
Message-ID: <vs6rnk$39556$7@dont-email.me>
References: <vrfuob$256og$1@dont-email.me>
 <448c82acff6b5fc1d2aa266be92df6f778ec2c6a@i2pn2.org>
 <vru5tp$38ob9$1@dont-email.me>
 <ac61f679d7ddb39b0ceaedd7f562899d36346535@i2pn2.org>
 <vrvccp$aq8m$3@dont-email.me>
 <e166831a8e02332d64ec151f61481e2629e6e53a@i2pn2.org>
 <vrvsh4$p4vd$2@dont-email.me>
 <c93030bbd81fb313c76c256c6e54beb48b07dfdd@i2pn2.org>
 <vs1vuv$2ot1m$1@dont-email.me>
 <d2f86fad6c5823e3c098f30d331576c52263b398@i2pn2.org>
 <vs2fgn$354gv$5@dont-email.me> <vs2u3v$3mcjm$2@dont-email.me>
 <vs434l$mmcb$3@dont-email.me> <vs45a3$resr$1@dont-email.me>
 <vs4ne1$1c1ja$1@dont-email.me> <vs4ovc$1e09p$1@dont-email.me>
 <vs4pg8$1c1ja$6@dont-email.me> <vs4pi9$1e09p$2@dont-email.me>
 <vs4qpp$1c1ja$7@dont-email.me> <vs4r2u$1e09p$3@dont-email.me>
 <vs4snt$1c1ja$9@dont-email.me> <vs4srl$1e09p$4@dont-email.me>
 <vs4tj3$1c1ja$11@dont-email.me> <vs4tot$1e09p$5@dont-email.me>
 <vs50dt$1c1ja$13@dont-email.me> <vs51po$1e09p$6@dont-email.me>
 <vs6nv4$39556$1@dont-email.me> <vs6or0$2p360$1@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2025 20:02:13 +0100 (CET)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="573eb7050e522f67e4fe879678fe5346";
	logging-data="3445926"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1//ZZmzPN4IwRGRq/WGz1iL"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:WaIE4LG9vFP6/kjWFdYQnXuP4Us=
Content-Language: en-US
In-Reply-To: <vs6or0$2p360$1@dont-email.me>
X-Antivirus-Status: Clean
X-Antivirus: Norton (VPS 250328-4, 3/28/2025), Outbound message
Bytes: 6939

On 3/28/2025 1:12 PM, dbush wrote:
> On 3/28/2025 1:57 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 3/27/2025 9:33 PM, dbush wrote:
>>> On 3/27/2025 10:10 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 3/27/2025 8:24 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>> On 3/27/2025 9:21 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 8:09 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 9:07 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 7:38 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 8:34 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 7:12 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 8:11 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 7:02 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 7:36 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 1:27 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 1:50 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 2:18 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 27.mrt.2025 om 04:09 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/26/2025 8:22 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002173] 8bec       mov  ebp,esp  ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add  esp,+04
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002182] 5d         pop  ebp
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002183] c3         ret
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Non-Halting is that the machine won't reach its final 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> staste even if an unbounded number of steps are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulated. Since HHH doesn't do that, it isn't showing 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-halting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD emulated by any HHH will never reach its final state
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in an unbounded number of steps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD emulated by HHH1 reaches its final state in a finite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of steps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is not very interesting to know whether a simulator 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reports that it is unable to reach the end of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation of a program that halts in direct execution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That IS NOT what HHH is reporting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH correctly rejects DDD because DDD correctly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> final halt state.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In other words, HHH is not a halt decider because it is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not computing the required mapping:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Troll
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 3:19:42 PM UTC-5, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > In other words you could find any error in my post so 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you resort to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > lame tactic of ad hominem personal attack.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Troll
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/22/2024 10:51 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>  > *Ad Hominem attacks are the first resort of clueless wonders*
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I corrected your error dozens of times and you
>>>>>>>>>> ignore these corrections and mindlessly repeat
>>>>>>>>>> your error like a bot 
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Which is what you've been doing for the last three years.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Projection, as always.  I'll add the above to the list.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> TM's cannot possibly ever report on the behavior
>>>>>>>> of the direct execution of another TM. 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> False:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I did not say that no TM can ever report on
>>>>>> behavior that matches the behavior of a directly
>>>>>> executing TM.
>>>>>
>>>>> Good, because that's all that's required for a solution to the 
>>>>> halting problem:
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are sometimes when the behavior of TM Description
>>>> D correctly simulated by UTM1 does not match the behavior
>>>> correctly simulated by UTM2.
>>>
>>> Irrelevant, because to satisfy the requirements, the behavior of the 
>>> described machine when executed directly must be reported.
>>
>> I HAVE PROVED THAT THE REQUIREMENT IS WRONG NITWIT.
> 
> Category error.
> 
> I want to know if any arbitrary algorithm X with input Y will halt when 
> executed directly.  

It is 100% impossible for any TM to take another executing
TM as its input. No one bothered to notice this nuance
before because they assumed that a finite string machine
description was always a perfect proxy.

IT IS NOT A PERFECT PROXY


-- 
Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer