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From: dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: DDD specifies recursive emulation to HHH and halting to HHH1
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2025 15:17:20 -0400
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On 3/28/2025 3:02 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 3/28/2025 1:12 PM, dbush wrote:
>> On 3/28/2025 1:57 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 3/27/2025 9:33 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>> On 3/27/2025 10:10 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 3/27/2025 8:24 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 9:21 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 8:09 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 9:07 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 7:38 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 8:34 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 7:12 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 8:11 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 7:02 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 7:36 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 1:27 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 1:50 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 2:18 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 27.mrt.2025 om 04:09 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/26/2025 8:22 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002173] 8bec       mov  ebp,esp  ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add  esp,+04
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002182] 5d         pop  ebp
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002183] c3         ret
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Non-Halting is that the machine won't reach its 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> final staste even if an unbounded number of steps 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are emulated. Since HHH doesn't do that, it isn't 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> showing non-halting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD emulated by any HHH will never reach its final state
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in an unbounded number of steps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD emulated by HHH1 reaches its final state in a finite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of steps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is not very interesting to know whether a simulator 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reports that it is unable to reach the end of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation of a program that halts in direct execution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That IS NOT what HHH is reporting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH correctly rejects DDD because DDD correctly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> final halt state.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In other words, HHH is not a halt decider because it is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not computing the required mapping:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Troll
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 3:19:42 PM UTC-5, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > In other words you could find any error in my post so 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you resort to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > lame tactic of ad hominem personal attack.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Troll
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/22/2024 10:51 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>  > *Ad Hominem attacks are the first resort of clueless 
>>>>>>>>>>>> wonders*
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I corrected your error dozens of times and you
>>>>>>>>>>> ignore these corrections and mindlessly repeat
>>>>>>>>>>> your error like a bot 
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Which is what you've been doing for the last three years.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Projection, as always.  I'll add the above to the list.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> TM's cannot possibly ever report on the behavior
>>>>>>>>> of the direct execution of another TM. 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> False:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I did not say that no TM can ever report on
>>>>>>> behavior that matches the behavior of a directly
>>>>>>> executing TM.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good, because that's all that's required for a solution to the 
>>>>>> halting problem:
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There are sometimes when the behavior of TM Description
>>>>> D correctly simulated by UTM1 does not match the behavior
>>>>> correctly simulated by UTM2.
>>>>
>>>> Irrelevant, because to satisfy the requirements, the behavior of the 
>>>> described machine when executed directly must be reported.
>>>
>>> I HAVE PROVED THAT THE REQUIREMENT IS WRONG NITWIT.
>>
>> Category error.
>>
>> I want to know if any arbitrary algorithm X with input Y will halt 
>> when executed directly. 
> 
> It is 100% impossible for any TM to take another executing
> TM as its input. 

But it can take a complete description of a TM that includes *all* code 
necessary for it to run.

In the case of DDD, that description is the code of the function DDD, 
the code of the function HHH, and all of the code that HHH calls down to 
the OS level.

The complete description of a TM is independent of what it is given to.