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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: sci.logic
Subject: Re: How a True(X) predicate can be defined for the set of analytic
 knowledge
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2025 14:45:09 -0500
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On 3/28/2025 5:33 AM, joes wrote:
> Am Thu, 27 Mar 2025 20:44:28 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>> On 3/27/2025 6:08 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 3/27/25 9:03 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 3/27/2025 5:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>> On 2025-03-26 18:01:14 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>> On 3/26/2025 3:36 AM, Mikko wrote:
> 
>>>>>> I am NOT referring to what is merely presented as the body of
>>>>>> general knowledge, I am referring to the actual body of general
>>>>>> knowledge. Within this hypothesis it is easy to see that True(X)
>>>>>> would be infallible.
>>>>>
>>>>> In that case your True(X) is uncomputable and any theory that
>>>>> contains it is incomplete.
>>>>>
>>>> The body of general knowledge that can be expressed using language is
>>>> defined to be complete. The moment that new knowledge that can be
>>>> expressed in language comes into existence it is added to the set.
>>>>
>>> No its not. We KNOW there are things we don't know yet, but hope to.
>>>
>> As soon as the first person knows new general knowledge and this
>> knowledge can be written down (unlike the actual direct physical
>> sensation of smelling a rose)
>> then this becomes an element of this set of knowledge.
>>
>>> And, the base of a logic system is STATIC and fixed.
>> The set of general knowledge that can be expressed in language has more
>> flexibility than that.
>>
>>> You just don't understand the meaning of the words you are using.
>>>
>>>> True(X) merely tests for membership in this set;
>>>> (a) Is X a Basic Fact? Then X is true.
>>> Which makes it not a TRUTH test, but a KNOWLEDGE test, and thus not
>>> names right.
>> The set of all general knowledge that can be expressed in language is a
>> subset of all truth and only excludes unknown and unknowable.

> Exactly, it doesn't include the unknown truths and ought to be called
> Known(X). It is also contradictory since it gives NO both for unknowns
> and their negation.
> 

*The key defining aspect of knowledge is that it is true*
When LLM systems have all of the basic facts encoded and
are only allowed to perform truth preserving operations
on these basic facts:
(a) They won't be able to hallucinate
(b) They will have the basis to shut down the lies
     of liars before these lies have any effect.

>>>> (b) Can X be derived by applying truth preserving operations
>>>>       to Basic Facts? Then X is true.
>>> But that isn't the membershop test you just mentioned, and it is that
>>> op[eration which Tarski specifically showed can not be done.
>>> The problem is TRUTH can be establish via an infinite set of truth
>>> perserving operations, but knowledge can not.
>> None of this makes any actual difference in the world.
>> We won't be able to prevent nuclear Winter and the extinction of
>> humanity on the basis of knowing whether or not the Goldbach conjecture
>> is true.


-- 
Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer